I got into a discussion of Mormonism with a TBM brother the other day. Among other astonishing beliefs, he told me that he strongly believes that the Mormon Prophet regularly meets with Jesus to discuss Church issues and to help the Prophet guide the Church and that is one of the reasons that the Prophet will never lead the Church astray. I was astonished that this highly intelligent man could hold such an obviously absurd belief, but I don't think that deep down he really does believe any such thing.

I think that the vast majority of TBMs know at some conscious level that they do their best to suppress that Mormonism is not true and that the Book of Mormon is fictional. I think that is why they are so afraid of reading or listening to anything that challenges the fantasyland they have constructed for themselves and why they are so dogmatic about their religion. If they really knew Mormonism is true, they wouldn't be so threatened by critics. It must be a full time job trying to keep oneself deluded into believing such nonsense.

Certainly, the Church bears a big part of the responsibility for this delusion with all of its lies and suppression and concealment of the truth as do parents, grandparents and other influential relatives, but the members themselves also bear a big part of the responsibility because for whatever reason the members have chosen to pretend to believe the fantasy and to deliberately avoid learning the truth about Mormonism which would destroy their Magic Kingdom. The intellectual dishonesty of Mormons in general concerning Mormonism is not only maddening, it is morally wrong.

I think you underestimate the psyche. When people are vested in an idea, especially with a lot of time and money, they will gladly toss logic out the window.

Few people are willing to unlearn bogus teaching, even if they have their suspicions. It's just so hard because it's so tied up in the ego. It's much easier to cling to false beliefs and to defend them with tenuous rationalizations.

The crap has to be peeled away the same way it was built up. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

Surly you mean, "Lie upon lie, decept upon decept."


I know, I know, don't call you "Shirley."

Maybe I underestimate, but when the reason or reasons a person wants to believe go away watch how fast the belief vanishes. I've never met a Mormon who says he or she doesn't want to believe, but just knows its true.

If the tscc so called prophet met with Jesus his ass would be red from being chewed out for what he is promoting that is going on in his church! As I have said before I have seen God the Father and the Son. I have communicated with them (the God heads) on a regular Basis - no far out stuff, but nothing supporting tscc and what they promote and their methods. I have learned enough to understand how they think and what they desire for us his children and tscc does not have a clue. The so called church (tscc) is in deep deep shit with the father and the son. Their (God the Father & Son) bottom line is to learn to love and care for each other and that all is run on the basis of the four letter word "LOVE". Tscc exploitation and squeezing money for the sheepe is not of God, nor the Guilt trips and blind following men who are not appointed by him. When God wants a prophet to lead, he himself ordains them and sets them apart for that job!

By their fruits shall ye know them. Also, early death is a clue. John Lennon, Bob Marley, etc.

ahh.. I don't think there is any evidence that any of the most recent presidents of the LDS Church have ever indicated any "meeting with Jesus". As a believing member, in those days, I never thought anything of the sort would happen.

I think a lot of believers make up what they want to think is going on.. with no evidence whatsoever.
But, hey, that's just me.

I have it on good authority that Mormon prophets only go off to meet Jesus once every few years. The last such meeting was on Jan. 27, 2008. I understand the meeting did not go well.

weird. my sources tell me their last meeting together was circa march 2003.

that was when JEsus!® threw a chair at hinckley for not getting a better deal on the property for the future city creek center shopping mall.

Check what significant event happened to Gordon on that day.

So maybe he was greeted at the Pearly Gates by J.Christ.

lol oh Tonto. I love your name btw. But what you just said reminds me of the story about the SLC temple. When I was in seminary we were told over and over again, "brother blah blah closed up the temple but later that evening he saw a light on, on the upper floor. He saw Jesus's face in that light. And then it went out" Okay, I probably retold that story a little wrong but you get the point.

I agree with you. I think there is far more delusion and cognitive dissonance in play than TBMs would ever acknowledge.

And if the purpose of TSCC is to "bring souls to Christ," and if Christ has perfect insight into every human's psyche, wouldn't Christ be able to tell the prophet how to bring every single person to membership in The One True Church™?

...I heard a similar tale from a senior Missionary couple, where the husband reported hearing "voices" coming from one of the upper SLC Temple rooms. He was "closing up for the evening", and ventured up to the room, where he was told by one of the attendees, it's OK, nothing to see here. His "opinion" was that Jesus was in attendance, and was in conference with the 12...............

If they met with Hiiimmm, the first thing Jeezus would tell them is:

Take off that stupid monkey suit and wear a robe...


This here is proof enough that they are lyin about having a direct hotline to The Lard

I agree that it is often the case that they fear people like us and the information that we have because they fear that their religion really is not true.

But for many others, it's not that they fear the truth, because they're sure they already have the truth. But Mormons have a very real fear of 'the evil one' and his power and influence if they are so foolish as to stray into confusing waters by reading things which are not positive towards the Church.

I've found a lot of TBMs think when apostles use the phrase "special witness of Jesus Christ," it means they have literally met Him. I was taught that several times, even told to listen for it during Conference. I always suspected the apostles know that's what many members think, so they try to get in that "special witness" when they can.

Really, I don't know. But that's what lots of people in the MTC thought and discussed regularly. Just imagine, if 15 guys just went into secret rooms in a temple and talked to some skyman who would only teleport to that specific room and no one else could see him. It sounds harder to believe than conspiracy theories.

but I was brought up (1957 was the year I was born) being taught that the prophet did talk to God. So, when I needed an answer, I believed they would have an answer for me. I just KNEW the bishop would have an answer. Nope. I knew the SP would then. Nope. So--a bishop friend told me to write to BKP.

I knew immediately when I got his answer that there was no such thing as talking to God by these assholes. I just realized reading your post that MAYBE that was one of the reasons I was suicidal when I got the letter and why I had to burn it.

You can live with your illusions for so long, but it was one of the 12 who PROVED TO ME that they don't talk to God, but, yes, I believed it for most of my life.

what did it say?

I WANT TO MEET THIS GUY! I got a bridge to sell him! But seriously, if Jesus WAS meeting w/ him why didnt he give them a heads up on a few things; Like 911, the Japaneese earthquake & tsumani, that radio- active dumping in UT is bad! I could go on ofcourse. Sometime when people come up w/stuff like that I wonder if their shelf is starting to crack & they need some reason to believe! Its alot of work to hold on to that c&$%!!!

Proof that they don't speak directly to God.
http://www.mormonthink.com/prophetsweb.htm#full

And you can help he understand how foolish mormonism is you can have him watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHEqCXY2B-w.

During my TBM days, I also believed that the prophet spoke with the Lord on a regular basis. As a member in the "mission field", I heard from various SLC members that Jesus walked the halls of the temple and spoke with the prophet about various concerns from time to time. I was so willing to believe it. When your whole life is caught up in the church, when you make the sacrifice to pay an honest tithe, when all your real friends are LDS, when you are trying to live the Gospel as taught by people of importance in your life, when you are trying to advance "up the chain", you are so willing to believe it. The key is: you really do want to believe the story, and so you do. If you have an enormous vested interest in believing the moon is made of spinach, you will believe it.

It sounds absurd to me NOW, but as a tbm I believed all sorts of crazy things. Are gold plates, polygamy, and masonic temple ceremonies any more crazy than 15 geezers regularly meeting with JC in Salt Lake?

And I disagree with the notion that all Mormons know deep down that their beliefs are false. I believed it with "Every fiber of my being" lol.

Sure, the top 15 haven't been declaring from the rooftops that they've seen the J-Man, but when you hear Bednar bear his "Apostolic Witness" at the MTC, and when you grow up hearing tales about Temple Presidents noticing strange goings on after they close up, it's not hard to believe that Jesus is speaking to his prophet.

I don't say that "all" Mormons know deep down their beliefs are false, but only the "vast majority." I have never been a TBM so I can't bear my testimony as to the truth of my opinions, but there is a reason Mormons have testimony meetings every month and why in all meetings one or more people testify as to the divinity of the Church--it's damn hard work to keep believing the absurdities. Members don't have to keep brain washing themselves if they know their beliefs are true. I have never once borne my testimony that the Earth is round or that evolution is true or that the Tower of Babel is fiction.

This question was almost the exact question that brought me to mormonthink two weeks ago. I wanted to hear about the GA's experiences in that department.
What a surprise I found.

How can Mormons actually believe any of it. Ugh.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2013 12:24AM by suzanne.

<it's damn hard work to keep believing the absurdities. Members don't have to keep brain washing themselves if they know their beliefs are true. I have never once borne my testimony that the Earth is round or that evolution is true or that the Tower of Babel is fiction.>

Tonto for the win!

It also helps keep them in the sheep pen.

As for the 15 meeting with Jesus, I'm not sure I heard that one specifically, but there were plenty of urban myths floating around about JC personally appearing at least once in each and every temple. Often, I heard these stories whispered in the temple, and the whisperer would point to the exact location where JC supposedly touched down (staircase in the LA temple, for example).

If he dined with tax collectors, hookers, and other social untouchables before (and, according to Christian theology, suffered and died for them), why is it that now, he can only show up to the Big 15 in the Salt Lake Temple?

I know for a fact that the "Holy of Holies" room in the Salt Lake Temple hasn't been used in decades. This is supposed to be where the prophet goes to pray in secret to talk to Jesus. There's now a table with flowers on it in front of the door in the Celestial Room. I went to the temple last year and a temple worker revealed that to me, then he tried to back peddle once he saw the expression on my face, and said, "Well but they could use it any time they wanted to!"

A TBM friend on my street has huge health issues. He is on a "special prayer role" of severe health conditioned members who are assigned to one of the 12 apostles who are assigned severe cases. Recently he had a priesthood blessing from the local high priests. He was near death - again. He woke up in the middle of the night, pulled out his oxygen and IV, went into the family room and fell asleep on the sofa. His wife came running to him in the morning. The bishop stopped by. They all exclaimed "what happened?" He gets a call a few hours later from one of the 12. Why didn't you ask us for the blessing? Now we get to put your story in the temple archives! Damn, they are so excited a miracle happened - the church must be true.

On another occasion my friend Craig told me Elder Nelson (apostle) walked with him in the SL Temple. On a staircase he stopped and said to Craig: I was walking up the staircase and stopped on this step I am standing on, and the Savior was walking down the stairs and stopped on the one you're standing on. That's when I met him.

I don't buy the Jesus in the temple stuff at all . . . I just can't.

Then elder Nelson should wear a tee shirt that says "Jesus says hi"

I used to meet with Mothman and the Easter Bunny. We had the most interesting conversations...

The closest these guys have been to seeing Jesus is the guy mowing their million dollar lawns.