I resigned sometime in the last year. My disaffection process was private (although I informed my wife as to my state of mind, discoveries, and decisions and did not resign until she and I were in agreement about it).

This was met with anger, hostility, and incredulousness by my in-laws (they were offended that I didn't come to them with my concerns or consult with them prior to making my decision etc.). They have questioned everything about my decision, character, etc. including my courtship and marriage to their daughter (having gone so far as to accuse me of deceit, willful deception, and lying etc. about my intentions with respect to our marriage and my long term plans).

Fact is, I didn't begin to disaffect until well after our marriage and didn't resign until several months of research and careful consideration had passed. They have accused me of acting rashly and too hastily.

They have repeated this characterization (about being "deceptive") of me on more than one occasion, and begun to echo it in private to my wife.

My wife's friends have also reacted negatively (no surprise there, obviously), indicating obliquely that she made a mistake in choosing to marry me and suggesting that they wouldn't have stuck around for my disaffection and other struggles.

Indeed, our relationship is good. However, it is being strained by these developments and I hope you all have some insight in how to proceed. I love my wife. She loves me. But we are beginning to approach disagreements about how to move forward, what we want (with respect to whether or not we have children etc.), career and other decisions. My wife has been content to let me do my research and share it with her, which has put her in a position of not going to Church, paying tithing, etc. But she hasn't resigned or really made a decision about the true nature of the Church either way.

After some time at home with her in-laws and friends (in a small, tight community of mostly members with apparently happy, productive lives), she is feeling very confused. I'm not interested in coercing her disaffection or resignation. I simply want her to be informed. Thus I eschew manipulation etc. With that said, she brought up her parents' and friends' concerns to me and I'm beginning to fear for the long term prospects of our relationship.

Leaving the Church has been difficult for me (why I would have planned this prior to our marriage is beyond me--it makes no sense and would have made no sense). And while I don't doubt its untruthfulness, I am concerned about what some of the fall out will be (I didn't necessarily anticipate this kind of ongoing friction, undermining, etc.). I'm angry that a lifetime in the Church can lead to this kind of unsettling and threatening circumstance.

Any thoughts or advice? It might be helpful to know that she's had a very positive experience in the Church her whole life. I have not (I never fit in, my real desires were not necessarily antithetical to the program of the Church, but definitely not totally coherent with it, either--I have repressed myself to such an extent that I am just now figuring out who I really am; this is challenging us both because I am not necessarily what the Church tried to make of me--I'm no better, really, or no worse, just different and not necessarily who I was when I courted and married her...). Thank you.

Tough one, but it sounds like she needs to start sticking up for you a little more to her parents and friends. It doesn't have to be from a position of defending your specific thoughts/decisions on TSCC, other than simply defending you as her husband.

If she just quipped back with something like 'anonimust has made his decision and whether anyone else judges it right or wrong, it's his own decision and he's an adult. Actually he's also a great husband regardless of the church, so it really upsets me when you talk negatively about him. Please refrain from doing so again if you value our relationship'.

I will ask her about this (I imagine she is already doing it--she probably only tells me what she thinks is relevant, which is that there is a lot of friction building up).

Thanks, sherlock.

Man, I am listening. You stepped in it for sure and I respect your actions to move towards a more genuine existence. Can't promise she'll go there with you and I can say I understand her position as well, she wanted "Peter Priesthood".

Hopefully this will result in an amazingly genuine relationship where two people listen and share and get vulnerable and protect each other and the relationship survives and results in an amazing family. Hopefully children won't come until that is on a stronger path of agreement. Wish you well. Please keep us posted as appropriate.

I stepped in it, indeed. I am also hopeful that my path will lead me towards more authenticity. And more happiness (in the long run--right now, I'm not happy, content, etc.; but I haven't really ever been).

We will make sure that no children come until we are in agreement etc. I think doing otherwise would be unwise, irresponsible, and unfair to any children.

Thanks for the hopeful note in your reply, gentlestrength. Time will tell how it all develops, I suppose. Dealing w/ the reality that I am not necessarily who she would have wanted to marry is difficult. Hurts the old ego, I suppose--not good for someone dealing with the inheritance of self-loathing that the Church bequeaths to its (ex)members.

It boils down to this so many times. What is more important, the relationship between spouses or the relationship between the spouse and the Church?

It is really sad that so many LDS members put their idea of Jesus and their belief in the church above the very real and tangible relationship with their family. Until your wife can honestly say that her relationship with you is more important than any LDS mumbo-jumbo, she will consider you and your relationship with her to be expendable. Talk to her, share your feelings with her, profess your love for her. Let her know, in no uncertain terms that she is the top priority in your life, and hope that she feels the same. This doesn't mean that she has to quit the church; it just means that you are more important to her. If she can't do that, I'm sorry.

I think that is the point. Her relationship with me and my disaffection is straining her other relationships, to the point that family and friends are beginning to express dissatisfaction (with me) more and more. That's hard for anyone (having so many relationships become troubled all at once isn't easy for her, either). What do you think I can do to help her?

I will post here--I think empathy and love are in great order here. Her rightful, although programmed, expectations are in great jeopardy here and yet she is still by your side, inspite of no doubt, advice to the contrary.

I am assuming your age, so these songs are likely not part of your life soundtrack. Maybe there are better more contemporary choices, but I will offer them to you as very respectful of women and the role the can play in the relationship you have created.

Let's be hopeful and optimistic and very considerate of the false although very real perceived change to her reality and her eternity.

"All About Soul", Billy Joel

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tp18IA77nhg

"The woman's got soul, the power of love, and the power of healing."

Joyful version of the same song, without the lyrics and edited of some powerful words.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YSvomXlbTUM

Hopefully somehow you can express to her the sentiments in this song. If you feel this way towards her, make sure she knows to her core this is how you feel.

"Never Saw a Miracle", Curtis Stigers (Boise, Idaho)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YDWOJt2EAH8



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2013 11:12PM by gentlestrength.

The problem is always YOU !
Never LD$ Inc.

If she loves u and really respects ur position...she will defend u...she doesn't have to agree but bottomline is respect...I would not stand for my family or friends disrespecting my husband...let alone treating me like I'm a mindless sheep that should distance myself from my husband because his point of view might be dangerous to my own...its pretty insulting all the way around.

I agree with Sherlock that it is your wife's job to stick up for you with her family and friends. You might want to give her suggestions for things to say or do a role-play with her ahead of time.

I would back off for now in terms of trying to draw her away from the church. Given what she's getting from her loved ones, the pressure that you are adding might be more than she can handle.

Good point. I will try to take some of the pressure off of her. Thanks.

This is what I found with my wife... the role playing and the backing off. Both helped tremendously.

Thanks for all of the advice so far. I will take a listen to those songs ASAP.

It is really frustrating how many decisions we make based on a false premise--then we are blamed for the consequences of attempting to reverse or change some of those decisions once we find out the truth (Hello! We could have avoided the potentially negative consequences if we didn't make dumb decisions with poor or wrong information in the first place...).

I am going to talk to my wife and figure this out. The problems I see are: it is affecting our relationship (out marriage) because it is affecting my relationship with her family and friends and her relationships with her family and friends are suffering from some of this fall out, too.

Advice for speaking openly about difficult things? How can I create an environment where we talk about difficult things (and raise the possibility of the worst outcomes) without causing panic (fear is normal, I guess, but I want to avoid panic)?

Thanks.

You need to set some boundaries with the in laws. They should not get to say those things. They do not own you and your mind just because you married their daughter.

Agreed. At the same time, I don't own them, either--they will say and do what they will say and do. I just have to figure out which opinions I need to refute/actions I need to answer and which I can let go... That's the hard part. You are absolutely right--just because I married their daughter doesn't make me their son or whatever. They act like all the decisions I make going forward must be made after consultation first. Forget it.

You do find yourself in a very difficult position with no real good answers. At least it sounds like she lets you explain the problems and issues you are discovering to her which will really help her to understand, somewhat, why you have made the decisions that you have - they are logical and rational decisons that can be expected of many who discover those problems.

Perhaps over time she will start to understand you even more and defend you better with her family and friends. If you both really love each other, that should in reality be what is the most important, and you then should both have a great desire to get by this difficult problem without it destroying your marriage.

I was in the same boat you are in now but much later in my life and after all our six children had grown and left home. I was not successful in even getting my now ex wife to even look at or consider for even a moment that the church may not really be true or what it claims to be. It has been very difficult for me to lose my wife to divorce for only this religious issue but such is the power of Mormonism for many marriages. That is really to bad that that happens. I could have never gone back to the church, however, knowing what I do, so I would not have changed what I did except maybe to take it a bit slower and with more tact.

Good luck to you in keeping your marriage intact.

This is tough. But she must make a decision about her LOVE for you as compared to her desire to follow in the mindset of her parents, friends, etc. She needs to be the one to speak up. YOU can not make a person want to accept this change. She has to have the personality and the desire to figure out -if it could work - her in and you out -even if she wants to stay in. It may take some time. But I would suggest it not be a wkly topic at this time. Just enjoy each other. Tell her how you feel regarding her as a person and possible mother to children. Let her speak on those subjects too. I think it will come out in time if she is in it for the long haul. And if you feel she is not do move on. Life has much to offer and you should not waste it wondering about the opinions of your spouse.And you have to know if you can deal with the inlaws for decades to come.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2013 11:54PM by honestone.

Good point about dealing with the in-laws for decades to come...

I'm going to do what I can to take advantage of what life has to offer. I'm cut myself off from too much of life for too long. I grew up so Puritan (doesn't mean I want to be a hedonist, either, just want some balance, some reality, some earthiness). I hope my wife will join me as we pursue more authenticity.

I am not clear on your circumstances? Do you know the Church is a scam and not true and therefore not beneficial for salvation or do only some apply? Therefore, I will tell you what I did and how that went. Sounds like you and your family is much younger so I doubt my experience will be very helpful to you.

I am much older and our parents gone and kids grown. I came to the realization the church was a scam from studying material on the internet (in response to a prayer) and there was no salvation through false prophets. I told my wife and kids this and told them I could not go to church and hear the lies they taught and see and how my church friends "ate it up". I have too much integrity to infer I want to attend let alone support a scam! Therefore, I left to set an example for all and if they ask I will provide them information ---- but none have asked yet (2 months). I really only associate with about 4 TBM members as our neighborhood is mainly inactive. The majority of the ward I worked closely with I rarely see. I do have other TBMs I play sports with but they will not know unless and until they notice I do not wear garments. So my day to day life (retired but play sports daily) is basically unaffected so far except I really enjoy the peace and freedom on Sundays by not having to run on the "treadmill" doing church callings.

My wife, who I believe is still a TBM because of her sisters testimony, finally agreed it would be better if I quit going but told me it was her whole social world and she still wanted to go. My 3 of 4 kids, who were TBMs, still are active but I told them it was not true and could provide evidence ---- I pray for them none have even asked for any support for my actions. My wife comes home exhausted on Sundays but has not reported any problems.

At first I said maybe I can still pay fast offerings as they may go to someone in the stake to help them but really have had a problem with that (because the church is a SCAM) and paid only a small donation last year and none this year. I have moved on to a Born Again Christian but nondenominational and just believe in strengthening my "relationship with Christ" by studying the Bible and watching doctrine/preachers on the internet ----- I enjoy many of them but haven't supported them yet. I see some of the Christian Churches, in my opinion, have become a little corrupt by talking Tithing. I believe in offerings when the Lord directs but following strict laws to gain God's favor are what Christ did away with. I understand that Christian churches need funds but inferring tithing is a requirement or bringing it up is a little concerning to me ---- I have been scammed once! I feel I have a great relationship with Christ, which has been strengthened by preachers, so I need to come to grips with how to support preachers that help me ----- if I believe they need my support. I do support other "worthwhile" activities but far less than tithing so far.

I know I made the right decision and have a significantly better/brighter/more enthusiastic life now. I think my wife is starting to see it but her whole social world is in the church. We do go on a lot more super vacations now with the extra money and savings! If my family cares to join me, and I pray that my powerful God will help that to occur, that is ok but its their decision! ---------- Good Luck!! Keep close to God and you will make the right decisions for your life!

I resigned. Enough said. I don't believe in God, so I won't be "keeping close" to him/her/it. I sympathize with your situation, however. The problem is, of course, that we made decisions about marriage and spouses with incomplete information. That doesn't do anybody any good. I love my wife and hope to make it work, even if she decides after her own research to stay in. We'll see.

I agree about your wife asking anyone who talks negatively about you to please refrain from doing so. Ask her to tell them that she knows your character and that you are a man of integrity. It sounds like she loves you and you love her. The cog dis is great in her head right now. Is it possible to move away from the circle of friends and family? Find jobs in another part of the country, get a fresh start? Making friends who are not LDS could show her how so many people in the world live amazing lives without the church.

Agreed. She is probably under a lot of pressure right now from the cog dis and the mix of relationships she's navigating right now. I'm going to back off.

Unfortunately, what you have advised is not possible (in fact, we are making the opposite kind of move...). We'll see how it all goes.

Have you asked her what she thinks about the things being told to her about you and how they make her feel? I think this is a good way to assess what she feels about the situation and and gives you a baseline to see where she is. It also shows her that you genuinely care how she feels and that you are concerned about her feelings. It should also get you some insight about what you can do to help her in this situation.

Good questions to ask her...

My takeaway from the OP was: the wife is going along for the ride. She either doesn't really have doubts herself or doesn't think too much about all this. She will follow wherever you lead. She will follow wherever her family of origin leads. This is what is causing her problem: She doesn't have any ideas of her own about all this.

Because if the shoe was on the other foot and she left the church first, she'd probably stand up to her family more. She'd probably defend the decisions made and your relationship a little more fiercely. She does not have the courage of conviction because this is not her conviction.

And until she researches and figures out for herself what she believes and why that is important to her, her family of origin will always be able to use her as a manipulative wedge to get in between you two and tear you apart. If being a member/leaving the church isn't all that important to her, then it would be easy to take either one away from her because she's not fighting for it. She's not engaged in fighting for her own integrity; she's just following her husband's lead. Which is nice, admirable even. But it makes her weak to the exploitive forces that want to control her life and yours.

I'll encourage her to do that. Good insight.

Can you ask her why she repeatedly tells you the negative comments in great detail, but doesnt always tell you what is absoultely relevant here---which is what her responses to them, as she reposnds, are?

Can you ask her if it were she who felt the authentic need to change her opinions and feelings on the church and its teachings and histories because of more facts she discovered only after she had agreed to follow the church, would she still stay? And if she did not stay, and your parents and your friends and other family spoke about her to you in this same way her "side" are doing now, what would she want them to say about her? How would she want them to speak of her to you? What would she hope you as her husband, would say in response to them?

Ask her if what her parents/friends/family are saying is anything at all like what she would desire and hope for for herself in a similar position, and if not, why does she think it is the way it is now with them? Why is it ok for them to say such critical, unhelpful, negative things at a time when confusion or fear ,ight be seeping into her brain over this?

Is it helping herfor them to do this, for them to sow discord and interfere in the marriage between you two?

And if it is not helpful, why are they insisting on doing it? Do they not lover her enough to support her, rather than pick away at her? Do they not think enough of her own intelligence and ways of coping in the world, to allow her to figure out what she feels is best to do in this situation?

Maybe she can tell them this:

I appreciate that you are worried about me, and our family, but we ARE a family and our family makes decision about our future with each member in mind. We're a unit, we are inseparable. We love one another, we work together to move forward into the world, and we are each respectful of one another, every step of the way. I need you to act in the same way right now, for my sake, if you also consider yourself my family. I need you to help me maintain and build my love and respect for my family, not tear it down and pick it apart in a hurtful way that is not kind or helpful. If you love me, you will show it; you will pay attention to my distress and help me lessen it, by not being disrespectful of my husband, who is a good person, good husband and father, someone who is honest and kind, someone I love.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2013 01:49PM by bookratt.

More good commentary. Thanks for chiming in, everyone.

Something I've been thinking a lot about since writing the original post is how we married one another at a time when our decisions, personalities, etc. were being shaped by our Church membership. Some of the very things that attracted us to one another were those very same things. I'm sure many of you have experienced the same thing, but I'm not sure how I/we will change and how that will affect our attraction etc.

It really irks me that the cult/Corporation has this effect. It is one of the most diabolical unintended(?) consequences on relationships I've encountered. Not a factor yet, necessarily, but I can foresee it changing things dramatically for us...

Thanks again for all of the good questions to ask ourselves.

Help her to understand one thing that is constantly attacking your marriage and she may not realize it.

Every time she goes to a church function of any kind it re-enforces everything about the church over you and the decisions you made to leave it. Every single time. Who is supporting your side of this picture? No one. It should be her, but it is not is it?

She needs to understand the problem from this perspective. give her an example like having the same situation you are in to a Jehovah's witness couple or a Scientology couple with the wife still being a believer and having the dogma, believers, and home checkers (home teachers) always showing the wife what a terrible person the husband has become. Yet she lives with you every day and others do not. She knows what you are and yet she is letting other judge and condemn you. This can't last.

I feel for you. Many of us lost our spouses. Take your time but not too much. If you love the wife prove that every day and take the rest slow with lots of non-confrontational communication.


Good luck my friend

Is that the TBMs in your life immediately "diagnose" you with various spirichul problems.

It's like going to the doctor for a sprained ankle...but he doesn't ask and won't listen to what's wrong.
He only has three diagnoses in his repertoir, it's a cold, a cut, or cancer.
You're not coughing or bleeding, so he says you have cancer.
TBMs are totally like this, except, let's be fair, they have more like ten or twelve diagnoses in their repertoir.
But they KNOW for sure you MUST have one of them, and the absence of signs of some means you must have one you DON'T have any signs of, by elimination.
They're logic is TOTALLY the same as that.
Of course, this makes us feel frustrated to be told what's wrong with us when they don't ask, don't listen, and force a comically childish game of a diagnostic algorythmn on us.
THEN, they interpret our frustration as being of the devil!
They ARE what they accuse us of being, petty, closed-minded, self-deceived, and self-serving.
The more I see Mormonism in a global context (instead of seeing the globe in a Mormon context), the more stupid it gets. They live in a delusion, and they call US crazy.