Just gotta say this. What the HELL is wrong with TBM husbands and wives having zero interest in studying the information that made their spouse lose their testimony???!!!

Look, its one thing if they are some random acquaintence, but its their SPOUSE! Back when I was TBM, if my wife or girlfriend told me that they had been reading some "anti-Mormon" literature, and what they read disturbed them enough that they started to question the truthfullness of the church, I would be all over that stuff trying to debunk it and/or finding some apologist literature which purports to debunk it. If I struggled to find answers for her, then I would take it to my Bishop or some knowledgeable member of the ward who could "set the facts straight" on this anti stuff for my wife.

I just don't understand this UTTER lack of interest in trying to resolve the concerns of their spouse. AT LEAST TRY and read the stuff. If my "eternal" wife was going the way of the dark side because of what some "anti" wrote, I'd be so worried that I'd be like fly on s**t digging through that stuff trying to debunk it and proving to my wife how it is either "lies, half-truths, or misrepresentations."

Actually I've known some people that have tried before and then just kinda stopped and I wonder if some of it has to do with laziness. It's a lot of work on their part to try and debunk it, and it's more confusing for them because (unfortunately not to their knowledge) they don't have any ground to stand on, so they just---let it go.

Often when a TBM finds out I've left over historical and doctrinal issues they will tell me "I don't want to know'. IMO TBM's have a deep seated fear that the Church is in fact not true. They do not want to know of the problems they fear change and having to acknowledge they were wrong and the life they lived was a lie.

Totally agree. They stick their fingers in their ears and shout LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA, because they know deep down that their beliefs are silly.

As silly as they are, it's really comforting to think it's all so simple: "I have a heavenly father who loves me, has a plan for me, and all I have to do is follow this very well-worn path and check these boxes and I get to be like him, and everybody says that's the best thing to be."

Then you crazy apostates come along and say, "what? do you still believe in Santa Claus too?"

How dare you? ;)

I think you greatly underestimate the power of denial, and of apolegetics, especially on someone who truly wants to believe.

The people who choose to stay aren't all fools. There is a reason they react in ways we don't agree with and don't understand.

I agree that many of them have the deep-seated fear that it isn't true, so they really, really don't want to look.

It could upset their apple-cart. If they are BIC, all their relatives and most of their friends will react with hostility, hurt, fear, shunning, shaming, etc.

They've invested their entire lives and their entire identity is based on TSCC.

They KNOW they are right and everybody else is WRONG! If they find out it ain't so, their self-worth and smug sense of place in the world goes right out the window. I think this is especially true for men.

In my case, for a long time it was much easier for DH to get mad at ME for researching, doing critical thinking, etc. and to put me down, threaten divorce, and sneer at ME for being so "gullible" as to believe all the "anti-Mormon lies."

Now that he no longer believes the Mormon lies, there's still some residual anger directed at me for rattling his cage enough to get him to look -- and thereby destroying his nice comfortable place in the order of things.

I, like Ex-cult suggests, set out to address the concerns my son had after his bad temple experience. In two weeks I'd studied myself out of the church. My wife, however, in response to my concerns, reads to firm up her own testimony. Not to straighten me out. It's hard to see through someones else's lens.

I believe that over the last couple of decades or so, the sheeple were threatened, warned and scared off by the Top 15+ other GAs about merely 'asking' what the problem was no matter if it was a family member and especially if it were a spouse. A far cry from previous sermons by leaders in the same position on, for example, the church standing or falling on account of the BOM, and therefore one must study it carefully.

As great perpetrators of boogey men, cult leaders claim that having doubts and questioning doctrine are whisperings of you-know-who. Ooooo, spooky! Repent ye faithless one! Etc.

When I first started researching the church, I shared what I learned with DH and he was actually looking forward to debating it with me. Until I started making sense. Then he just shut down and told me, basically, that he needed to believe in the church and no matter what it's faults, it's still the best way to live. He didn't want to hear any more about it. Even though he's stopped attending and stopped paying tithing, he still wears garments and doesn't want to hear anything he can interpret as negative. Get that? Interpret. It doesn't matter what I actually say - if he can take it the wrong way, he does. Yet occasionally he'll throw out zingers toward the church too.

I think it's just that some active Mormons find it a much easier problem to solve that their spouses just got their feelings hurt, will get over it, see what they are missing and come back. It's too big a leap to believe the church actually isn't true. They need it to be true so they aren't interested in anyone who can prove them wrong.

It's important to understand and know your spouse, to share with them knowledge, and to communicate openly with what troubles them. Unless that stuff is "anti-Mormon" then they need to take off their shoes and go make you a sandwich.

TBM here- There are some of us out here reading what you say to learn about our spouses. So far not very impressed. But I have only been reading on and off for 9 years so maybe I just don't have the great intellect you so readily demonstrated on this sight. Because I have not got it.

I think it all boils down to the faith issue. I think it is funny you have a problem with Joseph Smith's ability or lack of ability to translate Egyptian yet you give a pass on the whole- son of God rising from the Dead thing. It is kind of hard to worry about the details when the only thing that binds the posters on this sight is hatred of the Mormon Church. There is little logical constancy in your positions. You all give each other passes as long as you are shooting at the church. I readily admit I fall back on the faith argument. It is a choice. But there are many of us who have made it with our eyes wide open.

All the faith in the world can not make a lie into a truth.

I am a lawyer.

You are very wrong.

tjlang Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TBM here- There are some of us out here reading
> what you say to learn about our spouses. So far
> not very impressed. But I have only been reading
> on and off for 9 years so maybe I just don't have
> the great intellect you so readily demonstrated on
> this sight. Because I have not got it.

Hey there, welcome aboard. Have you confessed to your bishop about your time here? He won't be impressed by your associating with apostates. Nah, fughet the bishop, stick around you'll eventually get it.

> I think it all boils down to the faith issue.

There ya go, wasn't that easy and convenient?


> I think it is funny you have a problem with Joseph
> Smith's ability or lack of ability to translate
> Egyptian yet you give a pass on the whole- son of
> God rising from the Dead thing.

First of all, who's "you" that you keep mentioning here? I very much DO NOT believe in Zombie Jesus. What's your excuse? Way to generalize the forum. Have you really been around these parts 9 years and NOT ONCE read the quarterly debates?

It is kind of hard
> to worry about the details when the only thing
> that binds the posters on this sight is hatred of
> the Mormon Church.

Because your first argument is patently false, it's kind of hard to take your next attack seriously. Yes, I hate the Mormon Church because it's a big, lying corporate bully that takes your money and gives nothing to its sheep: no understanding, no charity, no joy, no free agency. All the while the top guys are livin' la vida loca, all that moolah!

There is little logical
> constancy in your positions. You all give each
> other passes as long as you are shooting at the
> church.

Have you got your broom ready? Because you can start making other sweeping generalizations. Honestly, you can. Yourself, you begin by defending your position as nothing more than being a "faith issue", yet you demand logical constancy. Hmmm....

I readily admit I fall back on the faith
> argument. It is a choice. But there are many of us
> who have made it with our eyes wide open.

And therefore that makes you a .....?

The original post was about why TBM spouses and, later, parents do not look into the claims that brought someone out of the church. I am saying, from my perspective, why. Faith is a logical argument in that it is the reason we can come to a different conclusion.

I am a defense attorney irl. I thought I could attack everything point by point and discuss it with my wife who is struggling with these issues. I have read many if not all of the arguments put forth on most of the issues. Guess what? I can make an argument on both sides of the issue and the vast majority of the "evidence" on both sides would never be allowed in a court of law- which is designed by the best of our human experiences to find "the truth". Every day guilty people are set free and innocent individuals are convicted for things that happened six months ago. The "truth" is what we make it to be. We all accept that in our legal system because otherwise we would live as animals. And if you don't accept it- yeah, we know you are there and we still have the guns and the jails so it does not matter.

I discount your stance that faith is not logical just as you discount it for me. My responses to an atheist are different from my responses to a believer. To you I would say is there any argument for religion that is not underscored by faith? I have yet to see one. So we are at odds from the beginning and therefore there is no other discussion to be had beyond the practical benefits religion may bring into my life or the negative consequences you have experienced in yours. You are exactly the person I am talking about. It is illogical for me to engage in a discussion with you about Joseph Smith if you do not believe in God.

I am not here to "defend the faith" as it is not allowed by board rules nor do I have the time. I am here to understand my wife. I do not know where she is going to come down. I understand that most individuals have had a hard time leaving and so I am trying to make my wife's journey better so it does not wreck our marriage. Therefore, I think a little understanding on both sides would be great for everyone involved.

Most of the comments on this thread have been about how stupid and closed minded those remaining in the Church are. I am just saying that is not the case.

It doesn't boil down to a faith issue. It boils down to the FACT that Joseph Smith was a fraud. Check out this page: http://mormonlawsuit.com/The_Lawsuit.html
All provable facts with evidence/proof.

With my wife it is fear. I pointed out a few facts about the history of the church. She admitted that she'd never heard about them and needed to study more. She borrowed the Journal of Discourses from her parents and started reading. It didn't take long for her to stop. Now if anything "anti" is said about the church, she freaks out and won't have any of it. I don't know if it comes from the church or her manipulative over controlling TBM father, but fear drives her life. Almost every decision with even the most minute daily choices are driven by fear.

I think fear is a valid problem. I felt it at first, as this issue is destroying everything I have ever wanted. I had very different experiences growing up as I did not live in Utah and I was the only Mormon I knew. When my wife first started coming to me, I shut it all down and damaged our relationship for years. I will admit that the Church did not teach me how to deal with it. Being a lawyer has allowed me to research it out on my own and I am trying to reach out to my wife.

I feel the problem is one of acceptance. After I realized she could come to a different conclusion than me and that was not "bad" in a personal sense, then I could open up. If she can come to the same conclusion, I think we have a chance. If not (I am always trying to change her and she is always trying to change me) then I do not see how we can make it.

Sometimes I feel like when I discuss the church with believers they tend to assume that something with 0.0000001% of probability is simply true because it is the last possibility.

IE
"Joseph Smith was sealed to those other men's wives while they were living just to test their faith."

When in reality, why would a just God ever mess with other peoples marriages on that level?

I don't know if that makes sense, it is just come to be my perspective as I've gone through a similar situation on the other side. Good luck with you and your wife's journey, it sounds like you are trying to be a great spouse.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2013 12:12PM by Steven.

I completely understand. I recognize that issue for myself. I have struggled over it more than anything. I do not deny there are issues. I just know what the Church has done in my life. I have ancestors who where there at that time and they did not have a problem with it. I have studied and had experiences that I see as a net positive for me.

The book life of Pi really spoke to me. I am choosing my beliefs. Funny enough it is also one of my wife's favorite books. She is just choosing something else- in my opinion.

You say "I have ancestors who where there at that time and they did not have a problem with it."

There are also people in the FLDS who don't have a problem with it . Also a lot of people in North Korea don't have a problem with it regime. That doesn't mean it's not harmful.

At first I didn't want to research what made my man lose his faith. It was as if my brain wouldn't let me go there. I felt like he had become "anti" and couldn't be trusted when it came to the church. I was afraid as I didn't want to loose my faith or be mislead by lies! But I cared about him a lot and didn't want to loose him over something that I might be wrong about so I dared to hear him out and I could tell that he was genuine and it was actually refreshing hearing things being spoken of so honestly instead of issues constantly being avoided. I did eventually come to the conclusion that the church is not true which a lot of people do after studying its top issues. I guess that's why the leadership needs to make sure we're brainwashed to be afraid of anything that isn't faith promoting.

Now I have the opportunity to create my own life purpose and focus on things that are truly meaningful to me! I am so thankful that I listend, researched and then thought for myself.


EDIT this was ment to be an answer to the main post don't know why it also replied up here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2013 03:54PM by nilla.

Please see my previous post. I think it is cute when people think they have a cause of action because they want it to be. Or, just because they can file something in a court of law, it matters. I am sure your lawyer is getting paid up front (if there is one). Every lawyer sees "cases" like these all of the time, most of us learn quickly how life works.

Why hasn't it been filed? At some point the actual law will come into effect and wipe out any claims. Time is of the essence! Good luck with that.

I wondered the same thing about my parents. When 4 of us 'lost' our testimony in the space of a year or 2, you'd think 1 of the parental units would show some interest why, but nope. They have their 'feelings' and feelings trump facts.

It's not a lack of interest.

It's fear.
Fear that reading anti-mormon material might damage their testimony. Well Duh....

This fear is propagated by the Church to keep people from doing research that would reduce tithing income.

The reason many people don't want to hear or read about information that disproves the Mormon church is because of fear. If you step back from the view frame of Mormonism, you can see that all of us are in a state of incomplete knowledge in a place where scary things happen (death). Because of this we set up mechanisms to help us cope with things that we don't know or understand (death, for instance). If you have a set of beliefs that explain the world and the unknown (afterlife, etc.), then you don't have to deal with those issues every day. When the belief system is challenged you defend against its erosion.

What TBMs do is expected and should not cause us undue time expenditure in examining their responses.

I was indoctrinated to believe that anything that dissuaded me from the belief the church is true was Satan's influence. It was hard for me to break through my ingrained belief of the influence of the "evil one" and allow myself to research and assess the information in an objective manner. TBMS are taught not think on their own, but obey. Part of that obedience is to reject as Satan's influence anything that leads to the belief the church is not true. This fear makes it hard for facts to fight against an invisible enemy.

+1. I remember hearing many times that anti-mormon info was essentially written by the devil himself, and reading it would put you on the path to destruction.

What's interesting is that some of TSCC's own literature, ie Brigham Youngs writings, were as damning of TSCC as any anti-mormon stuff out there.

And that's why you're on this board, and not one of them.

I was mad about TSCC's demand for tithing. I researched my way out of belief.

Like a hot house flower it requires constant care and support and is extremely vulnerable. It wilts in the face of almost any challenge, any exposure to a broader range of truth, any critique. It only lives/thrives under carefully controlled conditions.

Faithful LDS are raised to understand this and know better than to let their faith be open to the elements. The idea of letting truths live or die in the marketplace of thought (according to their merit) as Hugh B. Brown taught existed perhaps to some degree in early Mormonism but has died a slow death ever since.

Yep.

It is extremely upsetting to me that my wife and children don't even think highly enough of me to even look and see if there is some validity to why I don't believe.

Which is the norm, not the exception. It just shows how effective the LDS church is in indoctrinating members to not question.