Already there are those who have decided this was a government hoax. Just like the moon landings.

And then there are those who want to use this to make new rules for immigrants and to advocate torture.

Heard anything interesting from mobots about the situation?

Well, my close TBM friends who live in Boston feel overwhelmed by the tragedy of the bombing. Not sure who the loonies are claiming it's a hoax, or others who want new rules, but my TBM friends in Boston just want to heal.

In right wing conspiracy politics the government gets blamed for everything. My dad is one of them. Every terrorist attack in the USA is an "inside job" by the CIA or Federal Government. I GUARANTEE if I called my dad up right now he would tell me how the government was behind this.

Mormons are overwhelmingly far right wing in their politics, and so you get a LOT of Mormons buying into the conspiracy politics. So I wouldn't be surprised if there is a lot of "chatter" among the Morgbots about this being an inside job.

I've heard left wingers do the same thing, only then it's the Industrial Military Complex and Halliburton that are behind everything.

Truth is, the government is a huge beast, with thousands of special interest groups pushing and pulling it. There are no secret conspiracies, those are far too complex, just a million little crooks who wait for an opportunity to get rich, and when it comes, all the nuts think that they must have made it happen.

Study the aftermath of WWI, and there were a lot of people blaming the Explosives Industry for starting the war, when in truth, they had nothing to do with it, just got very lucky is all.

Correct, but it seems like the left wingers mainly talk about how wars are instigated to enrich the military-industrial-oil crowd, but I don't think I've actually heard them say the government was actually behind terrorist attacks.

I'll help you out. Did you hear about Bush having Blackwater dynamite the levees in Katrina so he could kill all the black people? I have actually heard this. Never from Republicans.

Of course the Repubs never claimed Bush blew up the levees when Katrina hit. They know that Obama had it done so he could be elected.

Bush blew up the WTC. Please try to keep the conspiracies straight. ;)

Sounds like a good one! Who's actually saying that though? I can't seem to find anything on it online.

If you were in the south, you would hear it.

What I love is the guys claiming it was a big brother inside job, pulled off by Blackwater. There are even pictures of military looking guys in cargo pants, desert boots, and black jackets, holding backpacks.

In case anyone sees it, those guys actually go around to every major event. They are from the military, and they have sensors for detecting chemical, biological, and radioactive materials, as well as a gas mask, and medical supplies, in case of a poison gas attack by terrorist. They are always unarmed, try to keep a low profile, but wear the outfits so local law enforcement and other first responders know who they are. If they had been part of a secret government conspiracy, don't you think they would have thought to not wear matching outfits?

They're probably going to change how they dress now, but next time you are at a big public gathering, with tens of thousands of people, look for guys in crew cuts, who are uniform in appearance, carrying backpacks, and who seem focused on what they are doing. If you really want to amaze yourself, keep an eye out for the police snipers on the roof tops, though there are probably only ever a couple of those.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2013 03:58AM by forbiddencokedrinker.

Yes correct on that...the "military looking guys" in the cargo pants, etc, were the 24th National Guard CST (civil support team) from New York, a nuclear/biologic/chemical response team typically farmed out for these types of events.

Interesting about the men in black. Did you deal with them? Where you in the police?

One of the nutcase videos claims that the young man in the wheel chair, escorted with the man in the cowboy hat, should have been dead from blood loss. And this of couse means it was all a government plot. The site showed a full on picture of the man and you could see that was nothing below his Knees just strips of skin and tendon, this view was cut from most of the media pictures. What saved the guy in the wheelchair was that first responders used torniquets which where credited for saving many lives. Just crazy arse conspiracy sheet.

I heard about it from a guy who was a planned guest on a reputable talk show on the radio who was ex-military who had worked on that end. I was just a peon, and while we were always aware these guys were there, the few big events I worked where they were present, they didn't tell us exactly what they were doing. You just kind of new these guys were there, but you didn't pay much attention to them, and I think I was once told they were just volunteers to help keep an eye on the crowds, and it was left at that. When the guy started talking on the radio, it clicked into place.

Any time you have a big public event, there is a ton more going on then you realize, to make this events safe. The people who run the events don't want it too in your face, else people will stay home in fear, the government doesn't want to tip their hand, and the cops are too busy with their own little assignments to know everything themselves, but you do see stuff.

In my first aid class the instructor explained that in some cases of traumatic amputation the arteries will actually retract some and self-torniquet themselves. Of course, you can't rely on that but it's likely a physiological fact that helped the guy.

I'm still in awe that he was able to remember the bomber after a horrific trauma like that. I have a feeling I'd come to after surgery wondering what my name was.

Yeah, I've been listening to a LOT of conspiracy theorists and "torture him" cries. It makes me sick. And heaven help you if you point out that not only is torture unconstitutional but that it's inhumane too. I've been told that means I "love" the guy and should become one of his wives. (Yeah, because that's the only way an individual can feel compassion.)

Some of the people in this country really scare me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2013 10:59AM by Rebeckah.

Don't forget that bomb fragments are hot, especially near the blast point itself, and there may have been some cauterization of he wounds as well. Plus, there was a National Guard unit running in the race as a team, who were near the finish line when the bomb went off, and were able to assist first responders with treating the same kind of wounds they were trained to respond to in Iraq. There would probably have been another dozen dead if they had not been where they were.

I have no doubt at all that the death toll was hugely reduced by the number of trained medical personnel there. There were the first aid tents, some military folks, all sorts of medical knowledge. It was very fortunate in that respect.

My personal experience has been that severed limbs do exactly as you describe. I only treated one traumatic amputee in my career and we got the bleeding under control using direct pressure.

Tourniquets aren't used very often in the field. The chance there were more than one used in this situation are remote.

In most instances, hospitals are within 10-20 minutes of a scene. Surgeons save lives, not tourniquets...

John_Lyle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My personal experience has been that severed limbs
> do exactly as you describe. I only treated one
> traumatic amputee in my career and we got the
> bleeding under control using direct pressure.
>
> Tourniquets aren't used very often in the field.
> The chance there were more than one used in this
> situation are remote.
>
> In most instances, hospitals are within 10-20
> minutes of a scene. Surgeons save lives, not
> tourniquets...

Actually tourniquets did save lives. I read articles from interviews with first responders and doctors and there were people using belts and strips of clothing to make tourniquets. The horrific injuries from limb amputations by the bombs caused huge blood loss and people would have died without someone attempting to stop the blood loss, even though hospitals were less than 15 minutes away.

Although the use of tourniquets has been questioned, the army found it saved the lifes of victims of land bombs. The use of toruniquets is now the current medical practice in the army.

How about - tourniquets help keep a person from bleeding out long enough to get to a surgeon? Direct pressure doesn't always work for severe bleeds. We carry tourniquets on our ambulances at my service and we have used them. The hospital we are based out of is about 20-25 minutes from the outer reaches of our covered district even driving code 3. But, given that you will probably bleed out within 5, that would be about 15-20 minutes too long. Sever your femoral artery and you can lose consciousness in less than a minute, bleed out within 5. Is the nearest facility the appropriate facility? In our case, we don't have vascular surgeons, or really surgeons at all, so that would be a no and you are going have a longer eta. Now - I will give you that Boston probably has appropriate facilities fairly close. But without immediate bleeding control measures, a patient who just had both legs blown off (and both femoral arteries severed) is not likely going to get there in time, unless he happened to be right in front of it.

Prehospital care can make the difference between life and death - otherwise I'm just a glorified taxi driver and my job means nothing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2013 12:10AM by epsynonia.

Agreed. Self and spouse are both in the medical field. Direct care.

After they caught the second guy, a super-TBM dude that I'm "friends" with in Facebook posted: hey New Englanders, how do you feel about waterboarding now that they've caught the suspect?

A bunch more TBMs chimed in with pro-torture posts. I actually felt ill after reading the thread. I like to keep an eye on the conspiracy nutjobs/glenn beck aficionados, but i may have to unfriend this guy.

Tell them they should waterboard the GAs to find out what Jesus has been telling them.

Lots of crazy talk all over the Internet and from some of their family also. My concern is the threats towards some of the family and others.

Typical -- same old, same old, people have their ideas and nothing
changes their mind. Not even the facts.

Remember the old adage: My mind's made up. Don't confuse me with the facts!!

I think the children should be left alone, but some of their adult family members need to be taken in for questioning, especially the wife of the guy who was living with him in the home where they were building the bombs. She had to have known something.

We immediately thought of one group then decided it wasn't possible, not in Boston.

I don't swallow conspiracy theories for that reason - there are some twisted folks out there for sure and they are plausible and sweet talking schemers.

How can we trust?

We have to or we'll go crazy.

Briggy

...it's a government coverup even when nothing happens.

And I want to smack those in high places calling for Tzarnaev to be tortured before they even knew whether he would answer questions -- which he did. They just want to hurt the guy. How civilized.

There is a huge part of me that wants to hurt the guy. Does it mean it should be our policy to do so, no it shouldn't, but given what he did, I admit to kind of finding karmic justice in the injuries he took trying to evade arrest.

Now what I would want to do, is not water board the guy. It would probably be illegal, and a thousand more times worse for him, but I would take advantage of him being a captive audience. He can't talk, he can't scream the words blasphemy. He can't go anywhere, so what I would do, would be to read him a story, probably selective passages from Richard Dawkins, and other atheist proponents. Arguments he has never really heard or thought about before, but I would shove them in his face, when all he could do with his young 19 year old mind is think about them. He may reject them, but he will still always know about them, and they will be there constantly, for the rest of his life, chiseling away at his resolve, telling him that he killed innocent people, ran over his brother, and ruined both his life and the life of his family, for what just may be, a fairy tale.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2013 11:30AM by forbiddencokedrinker.

This is bizarre. No better than the 'Torture Now!' people. You're taking advantage of his injuries to force religion, or your version of it, down his throat. You want him to change and you're willing to coerce him into believing as you do.

Do you really think you could change someone's religion by screaming at them when they are injured?

BTW, he can talk...

"Obama did it!"

Doxi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Obama did it!"


Amazing.....did Obama force the brothers to make the bombs, as well? How ignorent can people be. As a side line of reading the conspiracy theories about the bombings, I ended up reading how the whole space program was faked. Wow. People are nuts.

My father worked at NASA from 63 to his retirement in the mid 80's, and was the program manager for the lunar rover on Apollo 15. We saw the launch and it was increadible, a Saturn five is like a sky scraper and to see it (and feel it) lift off the ground was an experience that I will never forget. But, according to all the wack heads, after building that rocket, the astronauts just spent their time doing nothing in orbit for a few days (I guess they made the fake moon landing film before they went into space), and then splashed down to fake us all out. Never underestimate stupid. And there is a lot of stupid in the US.

Long ago when I still smoked and "no smoking" on airliners was still new I had been on a flight from San Francisco to Atlanta where I was going to catch a connecting flight. I was in nicodine withdrawl. As I was walking down the long hall from the gate I saw two men in Ray Ban type sunglasses, sports jackets and ear bud type earphones; one on each side of the hall, intently watching people walking out. One was smoking. I stood next to him, lit up, and took a couple of drags. He glared at me and asked "What the hell are you doing?" I told him "They aren't going to tell you to put it out." He told me "Get the hell out of here."

what else would you expect from Glenn Beck worshipers ?

on a sight that typically hates on all religious belief.

On a politically very incorrect note, I felt a savage sense of triumph when I saw that that the older brother was dead. His last moments of life where very painful, as he was dragged by a car. He deserved that death. Tax payers saved a lot of money by his death, but millions will be spent on the defense, prosecution, and imprisonment of the younger brother. He will probably get death by lethal injection but it will take years for that to happen. He can think about his death for a long time.

His parents are still denying that their sons are guilty. The fact that they told the guy that was car jacked that they were the bombers, and the evidence found that linked them to the bombs, seems pretty convincing. Not to mention that they had guns and explosives in the shoot out with the police, I mean how does an innocent person just happen to have all that hardware?

Some humor concerning Conspiracies:

http://xkcd.com/258/

http://xkcd.com/966/

http://xkcd.com/690/

http://xkcd.com/250/

No conspiracy, but.......as an alternative argument, does not the notion of an entire city being "locked down", in pursuit of several individuals, ring any alarm bells? Is this where we are now?...entire cities being locked down for?.......................what next?...........robbing liquor stores?.......you fill in the blank.

...how many Feds/cops on the streets?..........thousands.

...OK, so members of Seal Team 6 enter a foreign and hostile war zone, enter a fortified compound, secure and remove the target objective, with no casualties?...then extract?....OK, there is a big difference between street cops and SEALS....got that, but?

...I'm sorry, the "Boston Paramilitary Theater" was over the top, in my view.

Yes, I too saw that ridiculous idea of the boston bombing being a "hoax" like the moon landing. However, the problem with such nonsense is that it tends to lump credible evidence of a false flag cover up from the government as being unworthy to consider.

The current evidence of the past 10 days points to something is very wrong with the media and government in reporting and discerning "facts". Facts don't change, but the media has been all over the place in changing its stories and "facts", so that we are left with a very confused nation on the matter.

Here's one for you. This video was circulated and apparently the suspect was first apprehended, stripped of clothes, and escorted into a police car. Then he ends up dead? That doesn't make sense at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y254QzBEm2c

If this is not part of the bombing, then why was it presented that way by the media? Can't they get their facts straight? Why not?

Then we have the FBI posting photos saying they don't know who the men are, when indeed, they have been in contact with both men for 3 to 5 years, which they were **forced** to confess when Russia got involved in the matter.

Then one suspect ends up dead and the other is hospitalized?

The only so-called proof is a few photographs of the two being in the area with back backs. That justifies killing and brutally assaulting them? Others were also in the area with back packs.

Huh?

Now we conveniently have a confession within one week, and the confession is in writing because he can't speak? He is seen leaving the boat unarmed and unharmewd to be arrested, without anything wrong with his throat, apparently.

Huh?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10007969/Boston-bomber-arrested-how-David-Henneberry-found-Dzhokhar-Tsarnaev-in-his-garden.html

They found him. He was injured. Then officials drive up and shoot into the boat to murder him. It didn't work. The guy got out alive. He did not have a gun in the boat. They wanted him dead. Why?

If the Boston police officer had not ordered everyone to stop shooting by SCREAMING, he probably would be dead today.

...perhaps this is not the forum for such discussions. Maybe until this settles out, we should all just cool it..........

god like productions dot com. Go read the boards about this there. There are MANY uber right-wing nut jobs absolutely convinced that the bombings were staged by the same "crisis actors" that staged the Newtown shootings. They have pictures of them all over the place comparing faces (that look nothing alike), and how the amputated legs are actually prosthetics, along with "obvious" fake blood or no blood in the pictures etc...it's redonkulous

Not trying to minimize the pain and damage, but the incident in Boston is miniscule to what happened in Oklahoma City back in 1995 - hundreds injured and 168 people killed including 19 children in a daycare facility, their lives snuffed out in the blink of an eye...