Here's the situation. A have a rather large group of friends that play raquetball and we've done so for many years. For me it's around 20. I am unfailingly friendly and kind to everyone I know and I know a lot of people.

So the other day, a group of my friends was sitting around talking after a game and one TBM guy makes the dumb comment that he prayed he would be able to play raquetball well that day and the other guys just kind of laughed at him. They said if god exists he couldn't care less about raquetball but he defended his comment anyway. That got them into a discussion about mormonism (three of the guys there were nonmormon) and this same guy makes the comment that when people leave the church they get bitter and angry. Since everyone there knew me they all immediately said "Really??? What about ihidmyself?" He thought for a second and then says, "I can tell he's got issues." They immediately stuck up for me and laughed this guy down. It's good to have friends.

But what really hit me is that I THOUGHT this guy and I were friends. We've known each other for about 7 years. I'm always nice to him and I'm always upbeat. We have no connection outside of raquetball and I always go out of my way to say hi and find out how he's doing. There is literally nothing I can think of that would even remotely suggest I was having "issues". It is all him.

It makes me wonder if it's even possible to be good friends with anyone who thinks you are a second class citizen.

Ah, but a true LDS friend would try to shame and insult you back into the church because he cares deeply about your eternal fate.

;-)

totally obvious he was on the defensive. pay him no mind and do not play with the idiot again.

I pretty much only have one active LDS friend left who will talk openly with me about my “issues”. We meet for lunch every now and then and he typically is very respectful and polite. We both do our best to stand our ground but not just attack each other just to be mean. I respect that he can entertain discussions that aren’t by the book.
Well last week I posted on my FB wall a link to a discussion about the 8 witnesses’ signatures. Jeff Ricks also made comments to the link. Pretty soon my TBM friend showed his true colors and just reverted back to the typical LDS apologist playbook.
I was very disappointed. And I’ll be a little more guarded in our next lunch get-together.

It's a slight variation on "you were offended / want to sin". To a Mormon, there is no legitimate reason for leaving. It MUST be because of a personal failing. That you would even be willing to be known to the world at large as a exMo without hanging your head in shame proves you have issues.

Methinks he has issues with anyone who leaves Mormonism and is a happy, successful well adjusted person. You are supposed to have lost the HG, and all that.

Sigh.

What did you reply to him?

Many do get angry and bitter for a while. But gosh golly! Could it be because without the Light o' Christ in our lives we shrivel and kick against the pricks? Nay!

People do get angry and bitter when they discover that they have been tricked, and when they realize just how unfathomably false the church really is. Then as friends and family turn into angry mobs or treat you like you are invisible, the pain sets in and you begin to recognize that you have committed the unpardonable sin by discovering the con.

As you walk through the store, members who had been friends look away, as you go through your mailbox the yearly Christmas cards are missing. Many people on this board have lost spouses and kids for the simple reason that they no longer believe.

People will come at you and demand that you believe and return to your duties, they question you as if you were guilty of a crime, they openly question your personal integrity and tell your kids that dad is taking them to hell.

Yes, exmormons become angry and bitter sometimes, but that anger is caused by those Mormons who believe that anything goes when they are on the Lords errand. And yes they have good reason to think we're unhappy, but they never see the wariness or defensiveness of exmormons evaporate as soon as they leave. So it isn't that we have this dark spirit all the time, it only looks that way when you attack us.

Arg!

...this is a guy who believes that God and Satan micromanage his life, right down to his racquetball performance, telling you that YOU have issues.

+1

That's ridiculous. Anyone who has ever met you in person knows you're about the most together, likeable, stable guy in the world. So much so that my once TBM wife saw you and your family and you single handedly destroyed her false mental image of the exmo with 'issues' in her mind. She actually later said to me, " That I hidmyself guy and hid wife...I want to be like them." The subtext being, because they don't seem angry or have issues.

Anyway, that dude is clearly unable to wrap his tiny mind around the fact that you've left the church and are prosperous, happy, and have joi de vivre. So you MUST have issues, even if he can't define what they are or why you'd have them. It holds his little paradigm together.

I'm sorry he was pretentious like that to you. Not cool.

They seem to see preconceived assumptions as proof and the flutterings in their bosoms clinch the deal. I call it mormon mindreading and I think it's because mormons think they're too special and called of god to ask for real evidence or face to face confirmation.

Sounds to me like your friend is the one with "issues."

You just want to keep yours to a carry on.

I've heard this one applied to me by the local pious TBM crowd. It's a bit worse, though. "He's got mental issues." Really? Just because I choose not to believe in your bogus cult?

I am reminded of the old SNL sketch in which a woman is praying about everything: "Dear Jesus, please help the Minute Rice turn out good tonight," etc. Jesus comes to her kitchen and tells her that, really, he tries to answer all prayers, but when he has to worry about her Minute Rice instead of a car accident victim, well, that creates a problem and maybe she should only pray about the big stuff.

Praying to play racquetball well strikes me as a similar waste of Jesus' time.

And then there's the whole "Well, I can tell he's got issues" thing. It's nonsense, of course.

I do not understand, and probably never will, the "shunning" culture of the LDS. So many TBMs seem (in my experience) to act like the students at the "cool kid" table in the high school cafeteria ...

Sorry, I don't mean to offend, however, in my experience-I'm not quite sure why you are "wondering". Any crack, any flaw, any speck of imperfection in you (which all human beings posess) is ALWAYS, will ALWAYS be seen by TBMs as justification for believing you are a miserable ex (or never) mo. Furthermore, where few of these imperfections are exhibited, the TBM makes them up in their own mind; seeing you exmo and a good happy person makes just too much cog dis in their narrow minds and they can't have it.

Wrapped in a cult, their every thought derives from a viewpoint of Mormon good, not Mormon bad. Therefore, you must be bad. Friendship does not extinguish this.

TBMs, family, good friend or no,are eternally waiting for something bad (real or imagined) to happen in our lives. A number of years ago TBM MIL told her exmo daughter that DH "doesn't seem very happy". She made this judgement after not seeing us for a number of years with limited phone calls. The fact is that are lives are not phony 'Mormon Happy' but we do have a deep contentment and much joy in our lives. DH remarked, "that is because I am not happy when I am on the phone with her. The audacity of someone else to make a judgement like that on the life of another and then go blabbing their flawed opinion to others. It is actually quite unimaginable...

and evidence that the nature of a friendship or pleasant familial relationship with a TBM is not untainted.

Why we would want those people in our lives is a question to be asked.


Ihidmyself Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's the situation. A have a rather large group
> of friends that play raquetball and we've done so
> for many years. For me it's around 20. I am
> unfailingly friendly and kind to everyone I know
> and I know a lot of people.
>
> So the other day, a group of my friends was
> sitting around talking after a game and one TBM
> guy makes the dumb comment that he prayed he would
> be able to play raquetball well that day and the
> other guys just kind of laughed at him. They said
> if god exists he couldn't care less about
> raquetball but he defended his comment anyway.
> That got them into a discussion about mormonism
> (three of the guys there were nonmormon) and this
> same guy makes the comment that when people leave
> the church they get bitter and angry. Since
> everyone there knew me they all immediately said
> "Really??? What about ihidmyself?" He thought
> for a second and then says, "I can tell he's got
> issues." They immediately stuck up for me and
> laughed this guy down. It's good to have
> friends.
>
> But what really hit me is that I THOUGHT this guy
> and I were friends. We've known each other for
> about 7 years. I'm always nice to him and I'm
> always upbeat. We have no connection outside of
> raquetball and I always go out of my way to say hi
> and find out how he's doing. There is literally
> nothing I can think of that would even remotely
> suggest I was having "issues". It is all him.
>
> It makes me wonder if it's even possible to be
> good friends with anyone who thinks you are a
> second class citizen.

It's their confirmation bias in full glory. Any tiny little flaw in you confirms the church is true and you shouldn't have left.

The only thing keeping mormonism afloat is the effort to keep everyone believing in it. Too many people say, "this is a sham," and it all goes down, including all the power and status of the TBMs. The entire thing is social climbing and being able to look down on others from a position of superiority that others must kow-tow to. That's what priesthood, anointing, secret ceremonies, and obedience are all about--preserving status.

You know it's ridiculous to try to judge whether a TBM is your friend by whether or not he bad-mouths you. Listen to how TBMs talk about ANYONE. There's no bigger den of vipers than a ward. A TBM I was having lunch with actually told me and another TBM not to talk about her behind her back when she left the table to go to the restroom! I thought, "fat chance." She knew the crowd better than that.

Do an experiment, (this works unfailingly for women, it might not for men, I haven't tried it) compliment a TBM to another TBM, in private. A look of consternation will pass over the TBM your talking to's face. Then she'll inform you of all of the "Buts" concerning your compliment. Like, if you compliment a TBM on how well she handles the schedules of her nine kids, you'll hear about how their hair is messy, though.

TBMs, mostly, are so insecure and competitive that being a friend, a real friend, is very difficult because they can't get out of themselves long enough even to be objective, much less caring. And the TBM worldview is so narrow and brittle that almost every objective fact conflicts with their dogma. Their strategy to resolve conflicts between reality and dogma is to deny reality. Therefore, you've got issues, simply because you must have issues. The dogma decrees it, and that's that.

Just being ex-mo threatens the entire mo enterprise. The racketball guy's got to tear you down because otherwise there's no reason to continue to flog himself in the cult. Keeping everyone believing is the main activity--that includes slandering those who quit. Look how TBMs treat their own children who stop believing, why would you, a near-stranger, expect better treatment?

I had a TBM neighbor who loved to gossip about everyone--except fellow Mormons. Then she was suddenly silent. She asked me why I left the church and when I explained that I was more comfortable and happy associating with non-mos, that somehow got translated to me being "offended". That was a foregone conclusion no matter what I would have said. It morphed into that cliche before my very eyes. Pre-programmed much?

I'd call him on it and ask him to explain what he means when he says you have "issues." Ask him nicely and calmly to his face. Ask him what he thinks non-LDS think of Mormons when they hear them bad-mouthing other Mormons like that and point out the non-LDS stood up for you and probably think that the Mormon is hostile and judgmental. Ask him if he thinks he set a good or bad example of Mormonism and/or if he feels good about himself embarrassing the church like that. Finally, depending on how the conversation is going, ask him if it's any wonder that ex-Mormons are angry when people like him go around lying and spreading rumors and making them look bad. Say "I don't want to be like you because you are nothing like the Savior." When he apologizes for "offending you" ask him why behavior like that doesn't offend him and tell him you feel sorry for him, being able to tolerate such un-Christlike behavior.

Or, do one or none of those things but I really think we need to call Mormons on their B.S. and ask them to explain themselves. Bullies only terrorize because they think they can get away with it and if people would expose their tactics, they'd have to back down.

so they say _____, I hear you are having ISSUES with our students
AFTER a student in their program commits a a behavior which has a number in the penal code, in my presence, showing off but, breaking the law, to their 'friend' which I have to document. Not little kids, full grown. Penal code material.
Perfectly polite to me, perfectly respectful, perfectly kind, stopped immediately went to see an authority since it all recorded on hallway camara.

Then the person in charge of this program they are part of, rather than knowing they have legal documentation to deal with, knowing one of their kids in now on probation following legal charges OR will be serving time as they already WERE on formal probation and broke the terms of it- which is very appropriate- seeing as early intervention may be adult criminal prevention-
ok, the person in charge of this program instead, says, despite the legal assault charges their kid got brought upon themself,

that another person, who simply noticed, being nearest adult when it happened, documented it (the camara doesn't lie)-
well ________ I hear you have ISSUES with some of our students

that is the someone who is weak, lazy, burned out, (refuses to work an extra minute says they would retire today if they could afford to "I'm not on the clock" unlike coaches club advisors and staff who put in hours after class) who is saying, they just dont want to deal with it, with anything extra, and they want to put the blame of something that would be extra thinking for themselves, extra work or an extra situation to work out of - knowing about it- full knowledge, when full knowledge of it- CHANGES their plans- gives them something extra additional to do- so they can make their program in life work as it is without changing it- without being responsible to full knowledge of the situation as IT is, and DEAL with it-

then they shift the blame. They say, well, _____, I see you have issues with


Its classic. I call bullshit. Don't buy it.

He's just projecting.

You have issues alright ...


With that stupid Cult he belongs to...



I can never grasp athletes praying to some sports deity in public...


Tebow must think The Lard likes football...

In their eyes, I guess, we DO have issues. I have a sister who is sort of an angry white person who is outspoken about her issues with immigration, Blacks, the "state of America," abortion, and homosexuality. But she's TBM, and she sees my quitting the LDS church as making me an angry and bitter old man. I see her point, though; whilst I am a lot happier in so many ways, it's true that I do really dislike Mormonism, and am a self-described anti-Mormon. By that I don't mean I hate Mormons, but I am now bitterly opposed to Mormonism as an organization. So this makes her correct by her perspective, that I am an angry and bitter old man, no matter that I'm now more mellow than I've ever been. Dislike for Mormonism = angry, bitter, etc.

Welcome to the club!

It's even more fun when it's members of your family. My dad informed the rest of the family that, "he needs help" while my middle sister told everyone "he has a bad attitude".

It's actually a relief to be free from their closed-minded thinking.

Quote:
"But what really hit me is that I THOUGHT this guy and I were friends. We've known each other for about 7 years. I'm always nice to him and I'm always upbeat...I always go out of my way to say hi and find out how he's doing."

I understand how you feel. It has often seemed to me that no matter how nice/friendly/kind... I am to people, there will always be some that seemed to respond the same to me, but end up being a traitor or hurtful. And some just answer to kindness with meanness. As a youngster, the injustice of it always puzzled me.

It reminds me of King Lear and his daughter Cordelia.
She is her favorite. She loves him for real (compare to her sisters). And just because she tells him that she doesn't have to make great speeches about her love for him, that her actions profess more then words and that property is not equal to love, not only does he not give her her share of the land but he also banishes her. All of this because of his pride.

Yes you do, with a bogus church.

That dude is no friend, and he's shown his true colors in front of your whole group. (It's totally cool, though, that the others shot him down.) From here on out, give him a polite greeting when you see him and then have no further conversation or interaction. He doesn't deserve it.

"He's obviously crazy", said the guy in the straight jacket.

Just kick his ass in racquetball!:)