I've been renting out a space above a garage for the past couple of years. It's not the best apartment in the world. But, the rent is cheap and I have been out of school for only a couple of years. So, it's been a nice to place to stay until I can establish myself a bit. Things have gone well until recently.

Before I moved in I talked to the landlord a few times. He knew I was raised in the Church but didn't go to church anymore. This didn't seem to bother him at all. But, over this last christmas he left me a copy of the BOM with his testimony in it. I gave it back to him and made it very clear that I wasn't interested. I could tell he was a little disappointed, but we still had a good landlord/renter relationship.

Today I came home and found out I had been love bombed with a plate of cookies. But here is the creepy part, the cookies where left on my kitchen counter. I talked to my landlord. Turns out he let the neighbors into my apartment. He says he didn't want the cookies left outside where his dog could get to them.

I was really pissed off. I told him as a renter I had rights and that by law he's not allowed to enter my apartment without my knowledge. I told him he definitely didn't have any right letting the neighbors into my apartment. He told me that they where just trying to do a nice thing and really didn't seem to understand why I was so upset.

I told him that I didn't want anything to due with the Church and that if anything like this happened again I'd be moving out. He said that he didn't think he'd be renting out his space to someone who was so rude and couldn't recognize a kind gesture when he saw one. I think it's time to start looking for a new place.

You're right. He didn't have a right to let these people inside your home. Their "good" intentions and "kind" motivations have nothing to do with it. These people might think they care deeply for your welfare, but they're still not trustworthy.

It's unbelievable that mormons think they can cover up criminal trespass with a plate of cookies.

If I'm his project I'll be moving out as soon as I can get my shit boxed up.

It really pisses me off. I've never been late with rent. Sometimes I have one or two friends over, but I never throw loud parties. I don't play loud music. I keep my nose out of his business. Can't he be happy I'm a good renter and leave it at that!?!?

You're an excellent tenant and he ought to appreciate the fact without meddling or intruding on you.

I'm wondering if you might have taught him a lesson by not rolling over. If his attitude seems properly adjusted since your comments, perhaps you can stay.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2013 10:48AM by Cheryl.

Wow, that would make me feel really violated, Actually, I had a similar experience when I lived in Armenia. My landlord let her son eat stuff that was in my refrigerator and then they left the dirty dish in there. I remember how it made me feel. But at least they weren't trying to get me to join their church.

I think it's time to move to a new place pronto!

> I think it's time to start looking for a new place.

Yes, definitely. What your landlord did was wrong on so many levels. There are other apartments in the world... go find one! :D

As a landlord, this baffles me. I can't express how little I care what people believe provided the rent comes on time and I don't have to deal with any headaches.

For the record, Utah state law permits entry onto a paid-up apartment only under very narrow circumstances. My contract stipulates 24 hours notice to the tenant unless damage to life or property is imminent or I've not been able to reach the tenant for 72 hours (ie, they might be dead in the unit). I give my tenants a gift basket every Christmas, but I call ahead to ask if I can leave it inside.

Letting other people in without calling you is a violation of your contract, almost certainly. You might want to have a heart-to-heart with your landlord on this topic.

Utah has lots of mom-and-pop landlords who don't know the law. Explaining to them your expectations of privacy would probably help the situation.

Well we've always said that they have no boundaries. Apparently that includes things which are illegal. Unbelievable.

We also know that when love-bombing doesn't work, their next step is to get hostile.

Unfortunately yeah, it's probably time to move.

Find a new place, then file a complaint against him.

Scary! Seriously, if the landlord will let the neighbors in with no notice to you, who knows what else he'll do?

As others have said, the landlord is probably in violation of the law. In my state, you'd be able to sue in both criminal and civil courts, and you'd win damages. At the very least, I'd urge to you move ASAP before this guy violates your boundaries again.

You would have to prove damages to collect money. At a minimun I would give him a copy of the landlord tenant acts pertaining to entry. I'm hoping you have a official rental agreement with this guy.

Be careful. Your next landlord/property manager will call this guy. You don't want to damage your good reputation as a tenant.

You said "I really don't like having my space violated".
He heard "You bring me cookies again, I'm moving out".
Sounds like you brought the past into it and confused him.

Not a good reason to give up your deposit. If you're not too proud, you could bring him a plate of cookies with the CES letter attached.

Did you know that Mormons don't understand boundaries? Try to educate your landlord without turning it into a pissing contest.

I am very suspicious of any landlord who would allow strangers into your home and here's why. (Not mormon related; feel free to skip this post.)

Many years ago, I lived in this little apartment. Every six months or so, the building would be sold and I'd receive notice as to where to pay the rent from that point on. With each change of ownership also came: A new property manager/landlord, a new bug spray guy, a new AC filter changer guy, a new maintenance guy. In the two years I lived in this place, ownership had changed hands no less than four times. I'd see some dude walking around the property with a toolbox and would have to ASSUME, "Oh, that must be the new maintenance guy." These contractors/vendors were never introduced to tenants or identified in anyway, like with IDs or nametags or anything.

Near the end of my lease, I decided the complex was getting a bit ghetto-y and repairs and maintenance weren't being done in a timely manner, so I found a house to rent. I paid up the rent for the month and moved out by mid-month. I went back about a week after the move and scrubbed the place top to bottom. I even cleaned out the fridge and the oven. A friend came over to help me and as we left, I commented about the stupidity of locking an empty apartment.

Another week later, I made an appointment with the property manager to do a walk through and sign off on the paperwork so I could get my deposit back. I unlocked the door and the minute we walked in, she said, "Where's the stove?" and I said, "Where's the fridge?"

Someone had use a KEY, went into my old apartment and took the only two things that could be taken: those two appliances. We called the police and made statements. She had to hold the deposit. A few weeks later, I got a letter in the mail informing me that, not only was I not going to get a penny of my deposit back, but I now owed the owner another $800 to replace those two appliances.

I reviewed my lease. There was not a word in there about whose responsibility the appliances were. I called my renter's insurance company and asked if they covered such things -- I even had the police report. My insurance company informed me that the owner's property insurance should cover that, because renter's insurance covers the contents of a rental that belong to ME and the appliances were clearly not mine. The property manager and I had made it clear to the police that I had locked the door before leaving -- it wasn't like I was negligent and left the front door wide open.

Long story slightly shorter, I had to sue the owner to get my deposit back. We settled out of court, but I did get it back, plus legal expenses, plus a little peace of mind money. The reason they wouldn't go to court is because I provided documentation showing how many different people who were all unknown to me, had access to my apartment, WITH KEYS, given the frequent changes in ownership. All of those owners trusted all their bug men and AC guys and maintenance men, but someone had a key, stole two appliances and left me holding the bag.

So when I read the OP's story, this situation was the first thing I thought of. It's really naive on this landlord's part to assume that, even if the people he let in were mormons, they are trustworthy. That is a security breach and you are now not safe. Because any con artist/psychopath/sociopath could obviously charm the keys out of the landlord and vandalize, steal, or home invade you. You think people can be trusted and then your kitchen appliances disappear. Worse could have happened. Because I had that experience, I would have called the police. Yes, even over a stupid plate of cookies. It does seem like excessive overkill, but I once thought it ridiculous to lock an "empty" apartment. Not so ridiculous now.

Or. You could go to home depot, get a kit, and change out the locks, so only you will have keys to your place. I might do that and explain why I couldn't trust the landlord to respect my security, privacy, and safety. You can always keep the old ones and change 'em back when you move out.

My family has had so many bad experiences with Mormons that I can tell you that along with the good there are many,many bad people in the church and the landlord is definitely stupid to trust them just because they are Mormon. I'm also sure that lots of thieves, scammers and pedophiles love the church because of the gullible and trusting nature of the general population.

He broke the law. Find a copy of the law that says he can't come in without informing you first (24 hrs notice probably) and give it to him. Then tell him if he does it again, you're calling the police on him for unlawful entry.

Definitely. He crossed the line, but won't take responsibility for it.

Landlord tenant rights.....plus trespassing...do something about it...can only enter upon emergency..or 72 hr notice..and can NEVER let anyone else in!...

You want a business relation with him.

He wants a new son.

He had good motives, but is completely irrelevant. The church issues are completely irrelevant.

He let strangers into your home illegally. That is the only point

That is creepy on so many levels! Why couldn't he just keep the cookies in a cupboard at his house until you were home? It would be wrong even if you were a TBM. What a jerk.

He broke the law. We had a similar situation when we were in Utah for DH's college. We lived in a duplex with a 70-something, priesthood wielding jerk as a landlord. He did some nice things but his attitude was identical to a dad who let his grown children move back into his house. He felt he had a right to come in any time, unannounced and without warning, if he wanted to check something or fix something. He also threatened to start coming in once a month to inspect if the house was clean. I had a tiny baby and a toddler at this point, with a husband who was gone 80 hours a week between work and school. Occasionally there were dishes in the sink and clothes to fold on the sofa and toys in front of the TV. Especially when he didn't give me any warning that he was coming over so I could straighten up. But it was by no means dirty or unhealthy and there was not illegal activity going on. He had NO right to enter the dwelling. Once he came in while I was in the shower and the kids were napping.

We finally called a lawyer who specialized in housing law. She said that once you sign a contract and pay rent, the property is basically yours. The landlord loses certain rights to it and, by law, is required to give you twenty-four hours notice of intent to enter your property. The only exceptions are if there is an imminent danger (like the apartment is on fire) or he suspects illegal activity. Other than that, he's trespassing as surely as if he walked into his neighbors house without their permission and left something on the counter. At least that is how the attorney in Salt Lake explained it to us - but this was more than 10 years ago. And, after his last stunt and his threat to have a "clean room" inspection the first of every month, we moved out a week later. He was way out of line..

One more thing, just because someone has good intentions doesn't mean they have good outcomes and they have to be held responsible for the outcome. "But they meant well ... " doesn't undo the damage done by the well-meaning person and is no way a get out of jail free card.

Good thing you didn't leave the bong out ;)

I think I have the name right. He was a young exmo whose landlord let the bish into his apartment several times.

The biship claimed to be "clergy" and said his authority over Jeff gave him a right to go in and leave goodies and gifts whenever he chose.

The landlord fell for it.

Jeff found his "anti-morg books" rearranged on on the shelf, the beer in the refrigerator rearranged, and his underwear drawer afar. He had it out with the landlord who finally refused entry to this trespasser the next time he showed up.

In those RfM days we had large numbers of newbies, TBMs, and mormon sympathizers posting. They said Jeff should be nice as the bish and landlord only wanted to "help."

I'm glad to see that more posters now understand about personal boundaries and privacy issues.

I'd feel horribly violated if near-stranger mormons came into my home.

Renters, young people, and everyone else has a right a feel secure and have the privacy to dress, not dress, have sex, drink beer, keep off color magazines and movies, nap or do whatever they choose to do in their own place and on their own time. All of this is their own business.

Personal freedom makes life worthwhile.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2013 11:47AM by Cheryl.

Return the gesture by leaving a plate of pot-brownies on THEIR counter.

I like this!

Move out. Period.

I lived with a couple for years, no mormon issues, however she liked "let me know what she thought" about certain things. Plus, I had to clean their place once a week as part of the rent... I can't tell you how much freedom, liberation, and happiness has come from living on my OWN. Not in the basement (though it was incredibly nice) of someone else's place. We were ALWAYS nervous they would just walk into our place at anytime.

I pay over double what I did before, but it is in a neighborhood I LOVE and it has made ALL the difference. I am actually spending LESS because I love to cook at home now....

Also--- this is such odd behavior. Mormons have no social etiquette or social awareness sometimes... it is truly baffling.

Like telling someone they are going to hell, and then not understanding why they are mad.

No awareness.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2013 11:57AM by intjsegry.

My wife and I watched the TAM presentation from Phil Plait, again last night. It's called "Don't be a Dick". The short side of the story is that is a "skeptic" who was concerned about the tone of our discourse when trying to persuade others into "rational thinking". I've found that helpful in managing my relationships with fellow Mormons.

While you don't believe in The Book of Mormon, shoving it back in his face is simply rude. If you didn't want to engage a discussion you could simply say thank you, and go about your business. If you felt compelled to refuse his offer, you could still do it politely. "I appreciate your concern for me, but you must know that I am very familiar with The Book of Mormon. While I respect your right to believe, you should understand that I don't believe in that book and would respectfully prefer not to be a candidate for your proselyting efforts". If you really wanted to a person, though, he wins hearts and minds on occasion, you could say something like this. "You know, I was raised Mormon and I am of course familiar with the Book of Mormon and what it teaches. To inform you, I don't believe The Book of Mormon to be a true history, and while I respect your right to believe, I have some serious problems accepting those beliefs myself. I am more than happy to discuss that with you if you wish". There are no guarantees on how he will respond, but it shouldn't surprise anyone that you are more likely to maintain friendship with your landlord, you may even enhance that friendship, by taking a far more coolheaded and respectful approach. You can alternatively, of course, be a dick if that's truly how you want people to perceive you.

As for the cookies incident. I'm a little more in your camp on that one...but again, try and appreciate that he was most likely trying to be kind. Rather than jumping in his face about your rights, you could first try and politely explain that you don't want him letting the neighbors into your apartment uninvited. If this becomes a recurring incident then you might consider getting more aggressive about your rights. It's also a fact that while you could make a big issue about your rights, the path of greater happiness to you would be to just get busy doing whatever it takes to relocate to a "real" apartment of some kind.

Hmm...when ppl are harassing and breaking the law..we DO NOT be nice!!..codependency and excuse making is a mormon thing..not us normal ppl thing!

I tried very hard to be nice when I returned the BOM. The reason I returned it is because Mormons use these "gifts" as recruitment tools. I wanted to establish boundaries as politely as I could. I did not want follow up conversations like "so did you read it yet?"

I was not polite when I found out he let people into my home. I believe my response was justified.

It seems to me that it's possible to be a dick passive-aggressively. For instance, take your reading of the OP's statement that he returned the BoM and: 'made it very clear that I wasn't interested.'

He doesn't say exactly what he said, so why assume that he was 'a dick'? In fact, he goes on immediately to say: 'I could tell he was a little disappointed, but we still had a good landlord/renter relationship.'

I find it a little dickish, to be frank but hopefully not to be myself dickish, to assume he was rude and provide what a little lesson that is possibly quite unnecessary if not, in fact, passive aggressively dickish.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2013 01:19PM by Lorraine aka síóg.

Perhaps.

Unless you were there, you're mindreading, then making an unfair accusation. That speculation and unasked for judgement is far more "rude" than returning an unwanted unrequested religious book.

If *your* manners book gives you the right to treat people this way, I would hope none of us read it or take it seriously.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2013 01:11PM by Cheryl.

I suppose if I'm willing to offer criticism from time to time, I should be willing to accept some as well. Having re-read the initial post, I can see that I did read more into things than what is warranted. So to that end I apologize to Jakers4, for having been myself a dick in this conversation. I suppose I had the TAM talk on my mind and was too eager to share.

Now, having said that...there isn't a day that goes by on RFM where there isn't a load of mind reading into the intentions of Mormons, on this site. So let's not lose sight of reality here. Cheryl, your comments and posts are no exception.

A landlord needs to give a tenant 24 hours notice to enter the property, unless it's an actual emergency situation.

72 hr notice not 24, calif and AZ..do not know anything of other states..but thats the law.

Jakers..I think you have handled it very well...a order of harassment will keep it from happening again tho. If you are in a lease he has to fulfill that term..if you are month to month he can give you a 30 day notice..If you do not document this incident with the police or court, you will not be able to prove retaliation eviction..if he took that coarse...CYA

Oh Boy. You're smack in the middle of Mormon culture with your landlord. The boundaries we know as common courtesy and laws just don't apply to them. They operate in a different zone!

Does no good to talk to them either.

Ignoring them is slightly more productive.

But if you do have a concern, put it in writing. Emails are acceptable now days in court, if you need to go that route.

DOCUMENT everything he does. TAKE PICTURES that are date stamped!!

Know your renter's rights in your state, county and city.
If he does something again, you could make a copy, highlight it and put it on his door. Not necessary to have any discussion.

If you paid a deposit, he is likely to refuse to give it to you for some obscure reason. So you'll need to take him to court and you'll need pictures for documentation. Good to be prepared.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2013 01:29PM by SusieQ#1.

Ooops, sorry. A mistake.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2013 01:37PM by Lorraine aka síóg.

your landlord is a psycho. I'm fairly sure they took the opportunity to snoop through all of your stuff while they were there too. Or at least the landlord himself has while you were gone.

That is such a load of shit. Anyone apologizing for the landlord has really shitty boundaries themselves.

Once I lived in a duplex, and my downstairs neighbor(old friend) moved out. The landlord put his 19 year old daughter and three friends in there with a drum kit, and after agreeing not to smoke indoors, they did anyways and flared up my asthma. I gave my notice, and two weeks before I was to move, I came home to find my deadbolt locked. It used a separate key from the doorknob, and I never used it because there was a locking main entry door, and my doorknob lock. I didn't even have the key on me!
Turns out the landlord had given a set of keys to his daughter to tour my place while I was at work, with no notice.
So I called him, freaked out at being suddenly locked out, discovered what had happened and knocked on the downstairs. Held my hand out for the keys while telling the girl that I never locked the deadbolt and the key to it was locked inside my apartment now, etc. She gave me the set of two keys and followed me upstairs. When I unlocked the door, she held her hand out and asked for them back!
I told her not a chance in hell, I have rights, and I will turn them over to the landlord when I leave. Like I would leave 19 year olds with access to my place...

The gall of some idiots!