Given the whitewash of all the history of the church. Do we know the real account of what happened? Do we know that the mob fired first? Maybe Joseph fired first? Did the jailers ever give their account on what really happened? I think it would rock the church's foundation if it ever came to light that Joseph or Hyrum shot first.

Given how emotionally charged the incident was on both sides, it's doubtful there is an unbiased account.

I don't think we really know what happened. Oh to be a fly on the wall!

I recall being told JS was a martyr and was as innocent as the new fallen snow.
He wasn't. He was a nasty little man who got what he deserved.
This church is truly founded on a pack of lies.
One other thought. How pissed off do you have to make someone before they tar and feather you?
JS sounds like a 19th century troll.
What dick head.

Learning the details that I had never been told before about Carthage is what got me looking into the rest of the story. There is never just one lie.

I don't see how it would do any damage if one has a knowledge of the scriptures. To keep Jesus from being arrested, Peter pulled out a sword and tried to cave in the skull of a soldier but missed and lopped off his ear.
Smith was or wasn't a martyr for his cause depending on how you read the accounts and interpret them. But even if Smith did shot first, it's well established he was locked in jail with his buds awaiting court when a vigilante mob sacked the jail and had obvious intent to kill them by hanging.
Smith had full right to shoot first against a mob set on killing him outside the means of the law. I'm surprised the account doesn't fall that way, Smith shooting and Hyrum and the rest using table legs etc to smash skulls etc as the vigilantes were coming through that door.

Surrounded by a mob or not, he had weapons smuggled in *as a prisoner* in the jail. That is not only illegal, it is not the action of a martyr or one "going as a lamb to the slaughter".

A weird, loosey-goosey form of protective custody where you could have your friends with you and have wine brought in.

My lord, my god, is there no help for a widows son.

This guy was one evil son of a bitch and the world is better off with him dead. He was the abomination.

Good thing he'll be in heaven to tell me how many times I spanked the bishop.

I disagree, him dying is the worst fucking thing that ever happened. If he had lived, his cult would have died out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2013 08:01PM by icanseethelight.

Interesting thought.

On the one hand he was an out of control megalomaniac who was due to flame out.

On the other hand Bring'em Young was as bad or worse and look what he did.

Now that I think about it you may be right. Bring'em put the cult on the map and if JS had stayed alive then there's a good chance BY wouldn't have had his opportunity.

Am I wrong?

I agree. I don't remember where it came from, but there is a saying that "A dead martyr is more dangerous than live fool" If he had lived, he would have been a live fool...but for a little while longer.

This often-repeated idea of innocent martyrdom is not supported by the official historical record. From the Official History of the Church, we learn: John Taylor survived the ordeal and would later become the third President of the Church.

"Elder Cyrus H. Wheelock came in to see us, and when he was about leaving drew a small pistol, a six-shooter, from his pocket, remarking at the same time, 'Would any of you like to have this?' Brother Joseph immediately replied, 'Yes, give it to me,' whereupon he took the pistol, and put it in his pantaloons pocket."
"I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenance of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and, leaning over him, exclaimed, 'Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum!' He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed, died."

One thing is sure, Joseph was going to die no matter how many people he killed on his way down. I wouldn't presume to know what Joseph's intent was, but it seems to me that a man of god, knowing that he was going to die wouldn't try and kill a few on his way down.

Why not take his licking like a man?

IF we dig too deep and compare we will probably find out the Jesus really died

in a sword fight

If we turn it to a WWJD remember that Jesus put a severed ear back on some dude after Peter cut it off. Jesus took his licking like a god, but his dad murdered a 100,000 Olmecs.

lol...why not take it like a man? Death from a mob? Because human instinct kicks in for 99.99% of humanity when faced with possible, imminent death. The instinct to survive takes over.
According to the NT and ancient writers writing about those in the NT, the apostles ran and hid when Jesus was arrested to save their "man of God" faithful hides. Paul ran from village to town to city etc to escape the death his mobbers thought he deserved for most of his conversion. Peter lied to avoid his jailing/death sentence.
I find nothing Smith did out of the ordinary be he wicked or righteous in wanting to live for another sunrise.
I find it humorous that people think he should have just opened the door and told the mob to shoot him...

I'm glad you found it funny, it was supposed to be a joke laced with truth. I understand that Joseph firing his peperbox pistol was a perfectly natural reaction, but than again we are talking about a man who considered himself Jesus' peer. If he doesn't hold himself up to the standard which he created for himself doesn't that speak to his character?

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,900905,900905#msg-900905



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2013 12:14AM by steve benson.

I thought Han shot first. Oops, wrong fantasy story.

The curious thing to me is the inventory of Joseph's personal effects. The saints (and he) were allegedly piss poor, yet at his death he had the equivalent of a year's wages in gold, silver and notes on his person.

hmmm...I didn't know that. Maybe it was his bail money that the saints brought? I don't know.

And he lived in a mansion with servants. Not bad for a man who
had recently filed for bankruptcy. Orson Scott Crud uses the
fact that Joseph Smith filed for bankruptcy as proof that
Mormonism is not a cult, because cult leaders get rich off their
followers. OSC doesn't mention that JS lived high off the hog
while using the bankruptcy courts just to avoid paying his debts.

I find it interesting that in John Taylor's eyewitness account, he does not mention who shot first.

Given that he would have a Mormon bias, I suspect that means either Joseph or Hyrum fired first.

Otherwise, I think Taylor's account would have said something like, "Shots were fired from the crowd and Joseph and Hyrum returned the fire."

Don'tcha think?

Finding Richards account was tough. No one seems to bother with it much as a source of information.

Two Minutes in Jail

as told by Willard Richards Times and Seasons, Vol.5, No.14, (1. Aug. 1844) pp.598-9 From the Nauvoo Neighbor.

Possibly the following events, occupied near three minutes, but I think only about two, and have penned them for the gratification of many friends.

Carthage, June 27th, 1844

A shower of musket balls were thrown up the stair way against the door of the prison in the second story, followed by many rapid footsteps. While Generals Joseph and Hyrum Smith, Mr. Taylor, and myself, who were in the front chamber, closed the door of our room against the entry at the head of the stairs, and placed ourselves against it, there being no lock on the door and no ketch that was useable.

The door is a common panel, and as soon as we heard the feet at the stairs head, a ball was sent through the door, which passed between us, and showed that our enemies were desperadoes, and we must change our position.

Gen. Joseph Smith, Mr. Taylor, and myself sprang back to the front part of the room, and Gen. Hyrum Smith retreated two thirds across the chamber directly in front of and facing the door.

A ball was sent through the door which hit Hyrum on the side of his nose when he fell backwards extended at length without moving his feet. From the holes in his vest, (the day was warm and no one had their coats on but myself,) pantaloons, drawers and shirt, it appears evident that a ball must have been thrown from without, through the window, which entered his back on the right side and passing through lodged against his watch, which was in his right vest pocket completely pulverizing the crystal and face, tearing off the hands and mashing the whole body of the watch, at the same instant the ball from the door entered his nose.

As he struck the floor he exclaimed emphatically; "I'm a dead man." Joseph looked towards him and responded, "O dear! Brother Hyrum!" and opening the door two or three inches with his left hand, discharged one barrel of a six shooter (pistol) at random in the entry from whence a ball grazed Hyrum's breast, and entering his throat passed into his head, while other muskets were aimed at him, and some balls hit him.

Joseph continued snapping his revolver, round the casing of the door into the space as before, three barrels of which missed fire, while Mr. Taylor with a walking stick stood by his side and knocked down the bayonets and muskets, which were constantly discharging through the door way, while I stood by him, ready to lend any assistance, with another stick, but could not come within striking distance, without going directly before the muzzle of the guns.

When the revolver failed, we had no more fire arms, and expecting an immediate rush of the mob, and the door way full of muskets half way in the room, and no hope but instant death from within: Mr. Taylor rushed into the window, which is some fifteen or twenty feet from the ground.

When his body was nearly on a balance, a ball from the door within entered his leg, and a ball from without struck his watch, a patent lever, in his vest pocket, near the left breast, and smashed it in "pie," leaving the hands standing at 5 o'clock, 16 minutes, and 26 seconds -- the force of which ball threw him back on the floor, and he rolled under the bed which stood by his side, where he lay motionless, the mob from the door continuing to fire upon him, cutting away a piece of flesh from his left hip as large as a man's hand, and were hindered only by my knocking down their muzzles with a stick; while they continued to reach their guns into the room, probably left handed, and aimed their discharge so far around as almost to reach us in the corner of the room to where we retreated and dodged, and then I re-commenced the attack with my stick again.

Joseph attempted as the last resort, to leap the same window from whence Mr. Taylor fell, when two balls pierced him from the door, and one entered his right breast from without, and he fell outward exclaiming, "O Lord my God!"

As his feet went out of the window my head went in, the balls whistling all around. He fell on his left side a dead man. At this instant the cry was raised, "He's leaped the window," and the mob on the stairs and in the entry ran out.

I withdrew from the window, thinking it of no use to leap out on a hundred bayonets, then around Gen. Smith's body. Not satisfied with this I again reached my head out of the window and watched some seconds, to see if there were any signs of life, regardless of my own, determined to see the end of him I loved; being fully satisfied, that he was dead, with a hundred men near the body and more coming round the corner of the jail, and expecting a return to our room I rushed towards the prison door, at the head of the stairs, and through the entry from whence the firing had proceeded, to learn if the doors into the prison were open.

-- When near the entry, Mr. Taylor called out, "take me" I pressed my way till I found all doors unbarred, returning instantly caught Mr. Taylor under my arm, and rushed by the stairs into the dungeon, or inner prison, stretched him on the floor and covered him with a bed in such a manner, as not likely to be perceived, expecting an immediate return of the mob.

I said to Mr. Taylor, this is a hard case to lay you on the floor, but if your wounds are not fatal I want you to live to tell the story. I expected to be shot the next moment, and stood before the door awaiting the onset.

WILLARD RICHARDS.

On a trip through Missouri I had dinner with a local couple and they said how the old timers speak with pride if they have any ancestors who were part of the mob that killed J.S. The descendants of the non-Mormon 1800's residents still think J.S. was a criminal. I have relatives from Kirtland, OH and they think the same way.