It happens all the time on TV, and most recently for me on the Voice, when that lady on Blake's team who should have been cut weeks ago sang "How great thou art." She makes a big deal about how she just wants everyone to know what she believes and all that.

I'm sitting here like, "most people are exactly like you. It seems a little redundant to me."

There's nothing out of the ordinary about being a believer in the US. But they always act like they're championing some minority cause which mostly cracks me up, but sometimes gets on my nerves.

</rant>

Because nobody has more power than a well rehearsed victim.


*This statement does not apply to real victims in any way.

I thought the same as JoD3"360. I swear American theists are taking a page out of the Mormon book claiming to be discriminated against for their beliefs.

Somehow any civil right is now an affront to their religious rights, which have always been way more extensive than they should be, because even though this is a democracy, the main stream press gives all religion a big "hands off" free pass for the most part.

Many theists find gay marriage and teaching evolution a threat to the country, meanwhile they aren't focusing on their kids educations and giving the schools the support they need, which is the real threat to the country.

You can shoot someone's head off and you go to jail. But you can screw up someone's brain real bad through indoctrination and brainwashing and whacko fairytale beliefs and, well . . . that's religion folks, we must respect that! That is why I take exception to the board apologist who says we should respect everyones right to believe what they want. I respect facts. All belief is suspect.

Persecution. It's not just for Mormons anymore. The mormon's should have taken out a patent on persecution when they had the chance.

<<You can shoot someone's head off and you go to jail. But you can screw up someone's brain real bad through indoctrination and brainwashing and whacko fairytale beliefs and, well . . . that's religion folks, we must respect that! >>

Holy shit. That's the quote of the week!

"That is why I take exception to the board apologist who says we should respect everyones right to believe what they want." I get what you're saying, but I have a minor disagreement with you on this one point.

Personally, I can understand how believing in some higher power can help give some people a sense of purpose and direction. I disagree with them, but I can see why they believe. I don't have a problem with theism as a general principle. If believing that some bearded loon up in the sky is watching over their every move and listens to them when they talk to themselves makes someone feel happy and fulfilled, more power to them.

Where it becomes a problem is when an individual uses their belief system to justify causing or permitting harm to someone else. As long as your beliefs are yours, and yours alone, and you don't hold anyone else accountable for your beliefs, I can respect that.

The problem is that the ones who make the most noise are by very definition the ones who are trying to hold everyone else accountable to their beliefs. So those who just quietly and privately believe in something that makes them happy don't get any representation. It's a Catch-22.

I probably agree with you, but could never use the same words you do.

I think a lot of people define respect as acceptance of others rights, or even deference to our differences. I like to use the term acceptance in that case. I prefer a definition of respect where the thing or person respected is held in higher esteem because after analysis of that person or thing attributes worthy of substantial good can be identified.

Respect is a very serious word for me. Mormons for instance, I have a no problem with them choosing to believe what they believe. Do I respect that they teach it to their children? Hell no. I may accept that in our society it is necessary to allow it, but saying I respect it? No way.

I do think acceptance of each other is often confused with respect.

I can agree to a point with this that you wrote:

"Where it becomes a problem is when an individual uses their belief system to justify causing or permitting harm to someone else."

This is a good point, but who decides what is harmful and what isn't? Is any religious idea based on fantasy rather than fact truly innocuous? I may accept their right to exist, but respect must be earned.

American theists are very noisy of late because they are running scared. They see the numbers, especially among the young. Non-belief and refusal to participate in organized religion is strongly on the rise.

I hope you're right. It would be nice if it is an extinction event, like behavior that gets worse as the one misbehaving realises they won't be getting away with their actions anymore.

I disagree. American theists are a minority. Atheists are also a minority. If there is a majority, it is the apathetic. Isn't that pathetic?

I converted to the Church during a summer break from university. When I returned to university I was living in a dorm with ~100 other students. Only two students cared if I was LDS or not: myself and a born again Christian. Nobody else cared as long as we kept our debate to ourselves.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2013 12:56PM by idleswell.

Are you asserting that if you polled the other 98 students about whether they believed in a god or gods they'd just shrug their shoulders? I find that to be silly.

In my experience, at least 90 of them would say yes they believe in a god or gods.

Theists are the vast majority.

But by the standards of theists that devote their lives to overt expressions of their beliefs, these other students would not be theists. Otherwise, they should have been concerned enough to save themselves and me (lost to a cult). If they are theists, their belief is overcome by apathy.

I don't think you're working with the same definition of theists as the rest of the tread is...

But I am using the definition of "theist" that a religious person will use when remarking on being a "persecuted minority."

Unless a person is a "Bible believing Christian" I doubt that you could qualify as a "theist." I remember a talk I heard in Church once about a Roman governor who was searching for Christians, but had to dismiss most charges because of "lack of evidence."

One upon a time, I worked in a computer science department of a major Canadian university. One professor made a huge point of working Christmas Day because he was an "atheist." Is everyone who takes Christmas off a "theist?" Do you have to attend a worship service to be a "theist?"

My LDS family would go skating Christmas Day - a wonderful tradition. When I met my Department Chair at the rink with his family, should he conclude that I had the same beliefs about religion as him?

Theist: of or relating to theism.
Theism: belief in the existence of a god or gods; specifically: belief in the existence of one god viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world.

So you are trying to argue that theism contains prescribed behaviors, much like believers do with atheists.

You are wrong. So continue with your tangent, but don't pretend theists are required to act in certain ways. They are not, any more than atheists are.

My sister is a generic Christian. The way she used to talk, she too thought Christians were the minority. Maybe they are listening to some nut job on TV or the radio telling them they are. You know how it is, some people don't even stop to question what someone is telling them, as long as it appeals to their confirmation biases.

And yes, it is very annoying that someone has to point out to everyone they believe something or other. It makes me jump to the conclusion that maybe they aren't that honest, because everyone so far that I have known who has to state their religious beliefs has been lying about something. It's like saying, "Trust me." when that should be the last thing you do.

I watched that episode of the Voice too. I liked the song and her rendition. It would have been fine if they didn't make a big deal over it - "it's great to let others see your real self", blah blah blah. I'm a Christian. I don't have fishies or bumper stickers, or rubber bracelets, crosses, etc hanging all over me or around my house or car. My behavior is what I wear. Anyway, I occasionally lose it and behave rather poorly and would much rather not have those things identifying me as a Christian at that time thank you.