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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 11:21AM

Why I prefer the use of the term: Tribe regarding Mormonism.

More on why the term: Tribe as part of the lexicon and doctrine of the LDS Church,why it is hard to leave it.

Preface:
I am a bit a purist when it comes to the use of words. Cult has a general definition that has to do with worship or churches in general.

I do not use the term: cult re: Mormonism anymore than I would for Lutherans, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, etc.

It's my view that the word: cult has too often become an emotionally loaded pejorative and used maliciously to disparage people's religion. I won't do that to Mormons or Mormonism becauese I want to keep the doors of communication open, not shut off all hope of future relationships.

I am also a skeptic and use critical thinking skills to evaluate how authors of books, who are accepted as some kind of authority, (in this instance), have used the word: cult to disenfranchise people who are living a different religion than they are. I don't buy into that kind of play on the gullibility of people that may be in a raw, emotional state.
I reject their authoritative manipulation of the words, just like I do anyone else who does the same thing.

My analysis (short version) - Mormonism functions as tribalism.

Mormonism in my long experience and observation is more accurately described as a patriarchal, generational, cultural, religious tribe. In fact the word: tribe is used in their lexicon.

As a convert, I was considered an adopted member of the tribe.

Considering how tribes manifest, it is, in my view, the best way to understand how Mormonism creates a whole paradigm for the individual in a familial, societal, religious context aka tribe.

Leaving Mormonism is, for many, leaving their tribe in every sense of the word.

When leaving the LDS Church, we are, in deed, leaving our tribe. As believers, the member was told, through their Patriarchal Blessings that (for the most part) the member "is of the house of Israel—a descendant of Abraham, belonging to a specific tribe of Jacob. Many Latter-day Saints are of the tribe of Ephraim, the tribe given the primary responsibility to lead the latter-day work of the Lord."This is an integral core doctrine as part of their claim that they are a Restoration Church with the keys to act in the name of Jesus Christ.

REFERENCE:
"Patriarchal blessings are given to worthy members of the Church by ordained patriarchs. Patriarchal blessings include a declaration of a person's lineage in the house of Israel and contain personal counsel from the Lord. As a person studies his or her patriarchal blessing and follows the counsel it contains, it will provide guidance, comfort, and protection

Declaration of Lineage

A patriarchal blessing includes a declaration of lineage, stating that the person is of the house of Israel—a descendant of Abraham, belonging to a specific tribe of Jacob. Many Latter-day Saints are of the tribe of Ephraim, the tribe given the primary responsibility to lead the latter-day work of the Lord.

Because each of us has many bloodlines running in us, two members of the same family may be declared as being of different tribes in Israel.

It does not matter if a person's lineage in the house of Israel is through bloodlines or by adoption. Church members are counted as a descendant of Abraham and an heir to all the promises and blessings contained in the Abrahamic covenant."


More info here.
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=17517c2fc20b8010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

More on why it's hard to leave:

When we leave the LDS Church/Mormonism, (belief system), in many ways the perception by the believers is that we betrayed and rejected our heritage - our Tribe: our family, discarded our societal system, and our support system, including our friends and are now outsiders.

That is at the core, in my observation and experience, of why it's so difficult to leave the LDS Church. In many cases, every single element of our entire life, our total environment is tied up in our heritage, whether we are BIC (Born in the Covenant), or a convert (an adopted member of the tribe.)


Welcome to the Wide World of Ideas: life is no longer a set of answers to every question, black and white, right and wrong, good and bad thinking. There is a whole new gray area and lots of new options.

The life or an outsider (apostate) requires a whole new World View and new support system. That is a daunting task and something that takes time. It also takes time and patience dealing with those who are living with and observing our changes. They need time to adjust to our major changes.

The looming question: If the LDS claims are not acceptable to be believed, then what is? And therein lies the journey and the need for information and support. Often that is found in this board and other online support boards.

One of the important elements, as I have experienced leaving Mormonism has been to take my power back and own it. That means I am very careful about who I give power over my life to. It also includes knowing we are OK and were OK all along. We can trust ourselves!

It means no longer acquiescing to religious/ecclesiastical authority.

It means learning to set new boundaries which is often difficult coming out of a religious environment with very few boundaries and a very large Confidentiality Loop.

What was acceptable in the day to day life of Mormonism and how it functions, is suddenly no longer the case. The controls (enforced or implied) are gone. The individual is left to figure it out for themselves.

Fortunately, we have the ability to touch base with others, to know we are not alone. We can learn from others. We can listen to a wide variety of opinions and decide what works for us. We don't all experience Mormonism the say way, nor so we leave it the same way.

We can carve out a new life of our own, based on our own ability to chart our own life on our own terms. How we do that is up to us. I prefer not to take all of the religious experiences so seriously. The past is gone and done with. I don't want it to mess up my present. What I want to remember with gratitude and cherish are the parts with value which are mostly my family.
Leaving Mormonism, or leaving your tribe, however one approaches the exit process, as I describe it, is never about being weak. It is about being strong enough to feel the fear and do it anyway even if the consequences of our decisions are not known at the time.

Leaving Mormonism is about keeping your self confidence, self esteem, self respect cranked up on high and not allowing anyone to destroy any part of you.

Leaving Mormonism is about giving yourself permission to be authentic and create your own World View. It's about taking off the Mormon filter and seeing the world with new eyes. It's about deleting and replacing dozens of automatic thinking scripts imprinted by years of teachings.

Leaving Mormonism is not just about having some hurt feelings or being offended, or having a bad experience. Life for everyone is filled with those kinds of experiences. If it were true that people left because of those notions, there would be no Mormons left in the church! :-)

Leaving Mormonism is about taking your power back and owning it and not being intimidated by the leaders or others who put their pants on one leg at a time, just like you do. Their authority only exists if we give it to them.

It is about choosing not to live by the doctrines/policies of a powerful, authoritative church that has something to say about every facet of one's life from what one eats, how one dresses-right down to the regulation 24/7 underwear, how one spends money, and their time. Mormonism is a life-style.

It's about being willing to step outside the cultural, religious boundaries of the familial tribe, and be OK doing it.

It is about setting boundaries and not allowing any Mormon leader to intrude into their personal lives, especially asking if one masturbates and other questions of a sexual nature. This is particularly inappropriate when a bishop interviews 12 to 19 year olds (males and females) in the privacy of his office with no parent present. (My view is that will have to stop and the sooner the better!)

Leaving Mormonism is about recognizing that covenants and promises made on the metaphysical, supernatural claims at baptism, in the temple, sealing ceremony (for after death), etc. are not binding, never were and never will be. Only the God Myth gives those covenants validity. Legally, there is no contract.

A careful study of D&C 132 with a comparison of the temple marriage ceremony dialog and the endowments in the temple show that the policy of polygamy (New and Everlasting Covenant) has not stopped, only changed in how it is currently lived to comply with the laws that were in existence all along. Read carefully, recall what you said and did, the marriage ceremony is tucked into your covenant to give all you have (time, talents, money) to the church. Some wonder if they ever married each other, of if they married the church.
Leaving Mormonism takes a huge dose of courage, tenacity and perseverance to withstand the onslaught of any Mormon who tries to discourage you from making your own choices.

There are some Mormons who have preconceived ideas that those who leave must have sinned, not repented fully or enough or in the proper way, not tried hard enough, didn't read the scriptures enough or with sincere intent, did not pray enough or in the right way, did not have the right attitude, lost "the spirit," were adulterers, and apostates, labeling their prior friends and relatives as something less than acceptable.
They operate out of fear that they have lost their "Celestial Family." which has been well imprinted by generations of the cultural, tradition mores of the tribe.

Those who leave are often treated as an enemy -- the spawn of Satan, and as such are often shunned and ignored after being denigrated in the most despicable manner; some, more so than others. A few escape this completely.This is especially grievous behavior when it occurs in families and is used as a wedge.

Some forget their own 11th Article of Faith in their zeal to denigrate and vilify anyone who leaves.

11th Article of Faith "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own heart, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

It is a breath of fresh air to meet a Mormon who is respectful and will honestly honor the choice to leave Mormonism and live their own 11th Article of Faith. Fortunately, I'm married to one!
It might be a little bit of a side-ways acceptance, as they maintain the Mormon World View, but at least, some do try. And, for that, I am very grateful!

Leaving Mormonism is knowing and never forgetting that you are OK, you were OK all along. You did nothing "wrong." There is no need for guilt, or shame either.

Leaving Mormonism is also about being able to have a good healthy, healing laugh at ourselves and the goofy, funny things we used to do. Takes awhile to get to that point, for some. I'm fortunate. I get to the humor quickly and I find it very healing.

Leaving Mormonism is about knowing that it is OK to be an authentic adult and choose your own underwear! How funny is that anyhow?

The word: Tribe best describes my observations, and experiences living the religion as a convert or several decades, completely immersed as a believing member. It is an analysis that gives me the greatest latitude in understanding how it functions and why it is difficult to leave it. I like the term, as it's all inclusive, encompassing the totality of it's history and how it functions today.

Our experiences are often very different as LDS folks for dozens of reasons. One does not minimize the other just because they are different.


"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
Friedrich Nietzsche

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Posted by: runningyogi ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 11:32AM

Excellent. Thank You for sharing this. Leaving the Tribe for me was such a challenging exhilarating time in my life many years ago. I am still surrounded by Tribal Relatives and happy in my own skin and power. The road less traveled feels alive and joyful. Much Gratitude.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 11:35AM

runningyogi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
ahh..yes.. to be "happy in my own skin and power" -- that's the ultimate , isn't it? What more is there. It's a kind of inner peaceful freedom that can't be topped!!
Thank you for your comments.

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Posted by: kolobian ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 11:37AM

Wards/Branches are certainly set up in a tribal format which plays to the individual's hardwired social comfort.

However, the mormon church is a business: a Pyramid Scheme to be exact. It is a multi-level marketing campaign masquerading as a restorationist christian denomination.

There are 12 major downlines overseen by the Q12, each of which are broken into sublines overseen by the quorums of the 70, further divided into area authorities who oversee stake presidents who oversee bishops who collect revenue from the general membership of their local tribe.

Money goes up, shit rolls downhill.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 11:42AM

kolobian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wards/Branches are certainly set up in a tribal
> format which plays to the individual's hardwired
> social comfort.
>
>
Yes, Human beings are, predominately tribal in nature throughout history and social connection/comfort, is a natural part of it.

Yes, the LDS Church is a group of Corporations. It's not just a religion/church or a non-profit. If you are employed by the church, very likely your check will have a "corporation" title on it.

It has diversified and has a lot of for-profit businesses/corporations that do a multitude of things.
I don't see it as a pyramid scheme though. That would require the underlings selling a real product! :-)

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Posted by: kolobian ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 11:51AM

<<I don't see it as a pyramid scheme though. That would require the underlings selling a real product! :-)>>

Don't they?

Every member a missionary, right? Not only that, but every male and many females are coerced into laboring as dedicated salespeople for 2 years.

Every member of the church is selling a product to their friends and families: afterlife insurance policies.

These afterlife insurance policies come with many benefits: becoming a god, having an eternal family, answers to life's tough questions, etc.

These afterlife insurance policies are expensive: 10% of your income for the rest of your life AT A MINIMUM!

Refusal to pay tithing = breaking the covenant of sacrifice

Refusal to sell afterlife insurance policies = breaking the covenant of consecration

All the revenue is collected by the bishop who sends it to the stake president who sends it to the area president who sends it to the GA, who sends it to the Q12.

How is this not a pyramid scheme??

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Posted by: WinksWinks ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 12:01PM

Their product is just as "real" as Landmark, another fine MLM!

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 01:38PM

Not only is exaltation a product, it is the ultimate moneymaking product since it costs absolutely nothing to manufacture. It gives the Big 15 an infinities worth of return on zero investment.

Mormonism is the standard by which all pyramid schemes should be judged.

My Websters Dictionary definition of tribe: "human community developed by an association of, and interbreeding between, a number of families, opposed in principle to crossbreeding with other communities . . ." I just don't see the connection. Well, maybe with the FLDS.

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Posted by: WinksWinks ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 11:48AM

TSCC is the biggest MLM to come out of Utah, the state that leads the union in MLM generation!

Of course they are selling a real product. The suckers genuinely believe they are purchasing their way into heaven. Well, they don't think "purchasing", they think "sacrificing" or "giving the lord his due".

But MLMs are like that, using deceptive words and oftentimes intangible product. What do you think Landmark is? LOL, blow that "real product" argument right out of the water!

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Posted by: FormerLatterClimber ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 11:40AM

Why do you keep repeating this post? It smacks of narcissism to think you have the authority, once again, to ignore the meanings of the words. Calling Mormonism a tribe and not a cult is the same as the milk before meat argument. And you're being dishonest. Sure, it has elements of a tribe. But you're IGNORING the fact that it IS a cult and yes, in the perjorative way. I don't need to define cult for you. You have Google. But when you say the CULT is just a tribe, you ignore and minimize the damaging factors. You're hurting survivors.

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 01:11PM


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Posted by: fiona64 ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 11:41AM

SusieQ#1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Cult has a general definition that has to
> do with worship or churches in general.
>
I would actually say "yes and no" to this. In strictly anthropological terms, a religion is a body of study and the cult is the group of people who follow that body of study.

In more common usage, the word is used to describe a dangerous religious practice, as one might find explained on the cult danger evaluation frame (http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html) originally developed by neopagans and now used by the FBI, ATF and numerous other groups. As mentioned in the link, many religious groups may fall into some of the categories; it's the higher scoring groups that are the dangerous ones.

And now, after that moment of geekery, I'm back to the original post.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 11:48AM

CLearly, there is never going to be a total agreement or consensus among former LDS folks about much of anything. And, that's so exciting and invigorating. We think differently. That's great news!

Giving ourselves permission to think differently, to analyze our experience is one of the best indications that they have left much of the old thinking scripts from the religion.

The most powerful thing we did in our marriage of over 50 years is to "agree to disagree" and respect and honor each other's rights to believe whatever we wanted. He was a true believer in Mormonism and after a few decades, I changed my mind.
We were two people who really did think differently, in addition to being opposites in so many ways.

I think it's great that we can share our different experiences - all with value, on a forum like this. (Not the only one, of course, but one that still is very popular.)

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 11:55AM

Of course calling LDS inc a tribe doesn't excuse them in anyway for being a cult. I belong to a tribe of balding middle-aged men, I also belong to a tribe of wage slaves, I also belong to a tribe of football fans.

What I don't get is why it is proper word use, to call it a tribe but it isn't to call it a cult.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 12:03PM

We all have our opinions about how the religion worked for us, what we experienced, and how it continues to work throughout it's history.

This is my opinion based on my experience and my analysis.

It's not about right and wrong, good and bad.
It's not a contest.

This is just one woman's long experience and research, observation and analysis.

It's something to think about.
It's a new way of looking at the religion, for some.

That's all folks!

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Posted by: FormerLatterClimber ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 12:25PM

SusieQ#1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We all have our opinions about how the religion
> worked for us, what we experienced, and how it
> continues to work throughout it's history.
****This is not up to opinion. A cult has a very defined set of attributes and Mormonism fits. It may fit the definition of the word tribe also, but to do so, dismisses that it fits the cult definition much more accurately. Again, your opinion is just like the 'milk before meat' concept that is so dishonest.
For example, Mormons say they believe in Jesus, ya know the same Jesus other Christians recognize. But when they say that, they are only presenting the milk, and in doing so, are presenting lies of omission. We all know that Mormons believe in a very different Jesus than the rest of the world. One who is a completely separate being from 'Heavenly Father.' That alone, makes their belief VERY different. Hence, a Mormon saying they believe in Jesus, the Jesus of the rest of the Christian world, is dishonest. So it is with cult vs tribe. To call it a tribe on the surface seems right (milk), but when you get into the definition, it becomes very obvious that it's a cult (meat).


> This is my opinion based on my experience and my
> analysis.
>
> It's not about right and wrong, good and bad.
> It's not a contest.

****Yes it is about right or wrong. This is more than opinion. Cult has a definition from the dictionary, just like tribe, and so does, oh, I dunno, personality disorders! They're defined, specifically by their attributes and that makes them FACTS.

> This is just one woman's long experience and
> research, observation and analysis.

****You're very attached to this concept. So much so, that you compulsively repeat this idea over and over. I call it spamming.


> It's something to think about.
> It's a new way of looking at the religion, for
> some.
> That's all folks!

***No it's not. You'll be back.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2013 01:03PM by FormerLatterClimber.

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Posted by: serena ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 01:16PM

Years of continuous sucking up and making excuses for a manipulative, soul-sucking MLM masquerading as a religion have skewed her ability to recognise normal and/or healthy. Or is it just another garden variety personalty disorder? Or both...

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Posted by: WinksWinks ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 12:05PM

Good thing "tribe" isn't something unchangeable like race. It's easy to leave a tribe when you never belong. Especially when the "tribe" tells you to your face you need to "work on yourself to fit in better". Where's that acceptance, that live and let live? Only a delusion!

Some people desperately need that social approval, usually because they had their self esteem shamed and punished right out of them as children.

CULT.
CULT.
CULT.
CULT.
CULT.
CULT.
CULT, by any other name, smells the same.
.
.
.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 12:16PM

And we see, that former LDS folks often have very strong feelings about how they analyse their experience.

Oh ya!! :-)

The nice thing is that there is no reason we are required to agree! ahh.. gosh I love it!!

One more thing: The reason I repeat a post is two fold: it's been updated, something added, or removed, or corrected, and secondly to share with new folks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2013 12:18PM by SusieQ#1.

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Posted by: WinksWinks ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 12:57PM

I don't care WHY you spam the board. Your unique definitions are yours alone. Repeatedly attempting to propagate them to others is the same as proselytizing.
I certainly don't support preaching on this board.

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Posted by: Ex-CultMember ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 12:18PM

SusieQ#1 would you consider Scientology just a tribe and not a cult?

I agree that telling Mormons their church is a cult is unproductive but I still wholeheartedly belive it is FAR MORE of a cult than most other churches. Its the LEVEL of CONTROL & POWER that they exert over their followers which is the difference to me. And their methods of control are extremely dishonest, manipulative and destructive and THAT is why I will continue to call it a cult.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 12:28PM

Ex-CultMember Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
I'm of the opinion that religions/churches in general, in most cases fit the standard definition of a cult in one sense of the word, (universal) and tribe in a more complete analysis.

I prefer to use terms that more accurately describe my own personal and familial, social experience. Tribe is part of their lexicon, a specific blessing of identity, and their claimed responsibility in "the last days." It works in their doctrine.

I find some of the so called authorities on "cults" to be just one more way to use gullible people's emotions to support their ideas. They are not the only ideas that work, in my view. I find them very limiting, and only defined to exclude some people and include others. Tricky and clever in some ways.

Someone mentioned to me while back that they were not going to be sold another "fraud,hoax" with that "cult" stuff! Ever notice that it only seemed to fit Mormonism while their religion was excluded? Seemed to only target Mormons which I thought was a cheap trick.
Ya, I'm not interested in the "cult" business while the author and self appointed "authority" laughs all the way to the bank, as some say! :-)
OH HORRORS you were in a cult, let me help you !!
Oh please. That just does not work for me!

I know it works for others, but not me! :-)

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 12:22PM

SusieQ#1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "The individual has always had to struggle to keep
> from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try
> it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes
> frightened. But no price is too high to pay for
> the privilege of owning yourself."
> Friedrich Nietzsche

I think Kipling said this not Nietzsche.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,831015,831224#msg-831224

http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19897&sid=059c1f3921320dfd83b5c90764dfc023

"Tribe" is a word I've never read in Nietzsche - ever.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 12:31PM

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
You could be correct. I just pulled the quote off a long list of off the Internet, and we all know how accurate that is!

There are several sites, this is just one.
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/f/friedrich_nietzsche.html

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Posted by: rationalguy ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 12:26PM

I hate, hate, HATE that stupid Mo doctrine about how we are all of the "tribes of Israel." I have nothing against Jews, but I am decidedly not of Middle Eastern descent in any way, shape or form. I am of Northern European descent. My ancestors were in Europe 35,000 years before any of the Judeo-Christian claptrap started.

If some mythology were to be built that was inclusive of my distant heritage (not necessary, they are dead and I am completely disconnected from them,) it would have to be that stuff about Thor and Wotan and eddas and all that crap.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 12:33PM

rationalguy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------



I hear ya! I thought the Tribes of Israel thing was odd myself, but that's their claim, so that is why I use it in my analysis. It's their claim that adds to a lot of how Mormonism functions.

We're not talking about facts here, folks! These are beliefs by faith which is the core element of religions of the world in history, in general, which, often include older myths.

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Posted by: FormerLatterClimber ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 01:27PM

SusieQ#1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> We're not talking about facts here, folks! These
> are beliefs by faith which is the core element of
> religions of the world in history, in general,
> which, often include older myths.


****YES WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FACTS! I'm getting sick of your damaging conflations. You're gaslighting the survivors who have been victimized by the CULT. Your OP is not discussing faith. We're discussing the modus operandi of said faiths. THAT part has facts. For instance, the sun went down last night = Fact. The sun rises every day =Faith. We're talking facts here. You're the OP of this thread for God's sake. You'd think you would get your own premise.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2013 01:57PM by FormerLatterClimber.

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Posted by: WinksWinks ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 12:59PM

I never got my PB, so thank GAWD I don't belong to some made definition of tribe. LOL.

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Posted by: Brian M ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 12:36PM

I prefer to use the term: Ethnic religion.

http://healtheland.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/churchmapusa2000.gif

The USA has several.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 12:39PM

Brian M Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
ahh.. something else to investigate.. .thanks for the reference.

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Posted by: WinksWinks ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 01:00PM

Ew! That's even more sinister, like saying I can never really leave because of the things I was raised around.
Gross! Get these mormon remnants off me!

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Posted by: Brian M ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 01:37PM

I feel pretty similar. Pride is not something I feel strongly when I think of my previous immersion in Mormon subculture.

I definitely don't consider Mormonism my ethnicity, but I do acknowledge that a period of my life I was involved in an ethnic religion.

I don't see any reason to label myself with a group that I don't find meaningful either.

I think the defining characteristic that makes Mormonism an ethnic religion is its focus on cultivating belief in the next generation.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2013 01:46PM by Brian M.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 01:43PM

Brian M Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>You make some valid points, in my view. It's an additional element that helps explain how Mormonism functions.

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Posted by: Brian M ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 01:55PM

Thanks for your insights too Susie. I definitely agree with you that Mormon culture is heavily imprinted with a tribal motif.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 01:18PM

And again, there is a lot of different opinions, some very emotionally driven, all of value to the person.

I'm so glad there is no need to agree!

We can share opinions and generally not hurl ad hominems. Well, most of the time! :-)

Could see a lot goofy diagnosis also!
Disagreement often brings out some strange comments, in my view!
Tells me a lot about them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2013 01:23PM by SusieQ#1.

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Posted by: WinksWinks ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 01:29PM

Strange comments are bound to result when you refuse to use dictionary definitions and try to make up your own.

Just gross that you continue to support in any way such a racist, sexist, anti gay institution. Sick.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2013 01:40PM by WinksWinks.

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Posted by: FormerLatterClimber ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 01:48PM

SusieQ#1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And again, there is a lot of different opinions,
> some very emotionally driven, all of value to the
> person.
>
> I'm so glad there is no need to agree!
>
> We can share opinions and generally not hurl ad
> hominems. Well, most of the time! :-)
*****Ad hominems:< in an Inigo Montoya accent >you keep using that word. I do notta tink it means what you fink it means!"
> Could see a lot goofy diagnosis also!
> Disagreement often brings out some strange
> comments, in my view!

> Tells me a lot about them.
**Do you know what covert aggression means? Your last sentence tells me a lot about YOU.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 01:34PM

The great thing about forming our own analysis based on our own experiences, with the LDS Church is that there is never any need for validation from anyone else.

We know how we interpreted and lived, observed, and internalized our experiences. And, they are not going to be the same for everyone.

How great is that!

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Posted by: mrtranquility ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 01:34PM

After my deconversion I did a lot of reading so I could perform a postmortem of sorts on my Mormon experience and understand it in a larger context. My readings generally concur with your tribal analysis.

One source puts it this way: religion binds and then it blinds. We generally don't have epiphanies like the visions JS professed to have. At some point we decide to join a "tribe" and at that point their beliefs becomes ours, period. A conversion experience like "feeling the Holy Ghost" is really not necessary. The Mormons just need to hook you long enough get you enculturated. Once your're an insider you become blind to how ridiculous your tribal beliefs look to outsiders (lost ancient American civilizations? golden bibles? Planet Kolob? becoming gods?, need I go on?).

We like to look at ourselves as autonomous individuals when in fact we have one major part of our psyches that's totally tied into group behaviors (just like bees and ants). It's very powerful stuff that's evolved over millennia and much of it operates on a subconscious level.

And yes, Mormonism is just one of many tribes. However, not all tribes are the same and everyone's mileage varies. What may be toxic to one person may be harmless to another.

And yes, I agree that understanding this can be very powerful in reclaiming our personal liberty and getting back on the path of a journey where we are the primary navigator.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 01:39PM

Oh yes, there is so much dynamic variety in our experiences.
Some had horrible experiences, some did not. I fall in the latter category.
I was a convert, so it's going to be a whole different mental, emotional, intellectual experience for me than a BIC member.
Also, because I was a a convert, that had an impact on how my children were raised.
(Most have left the LDS Church.)

And yes, as an outsider, the beliefs do come across as strange, when as an immersed believer they were just common stuff! :-)


I agree that it's so important to be our own "primary navigator" of our lives. It's one of the most powerful things I did for myself that I call: taking your power back.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2013 01:40PM by SusieQ#1.

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Posted by: WinksWinks ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 01:44PM

I'm glad I haven't seen you mock anyone's personal experiences as "unbelievable" or "I never saw any such thing in all my time there!" lately, but you have never apologized for all the people you accused of exaggerating or outright making shit up, and I know you never will.

"it was lovely for me" does not excuse the sexism, racism, and homophobic lobbying rampant within the scriptures, doctrine, and "tribal" behaviors.
I will always have something to say against those who support it.

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Posted by: drilldoc ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 01:46PM

I use the word "Club". Therefore, I quit the club sometime ago.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 01:48PM

ahh..Club... ya.. that works also.
I did have the sense I was in an exclusive, expensive club much of the time! :-)

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 01:54PM

Church! Why not call it a church? Its a vicious, scamming, esteem smashing, CHURCH. C H U R C H !

Tribes are familial by nature, and the church destroys families.

With what I have been through in my life I am insulted at your continual effort to make the insidious mormon church into an anthropological curiosity.

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Posted by: WinksWinks ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 01:57PM

Yup, agreed. All this obfuscation is basically excusing the harm done. Yet again.

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Posted by: adoylelb ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 01:55PM

I think it can be considered a tribe, since if you're not born into it, it's hard to fit in, at least it was for me which made it somewhat easy to walk away. For those born into it, or raised from a young age in it, it's really their tribe and much harder to leave.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 01:57PM

adoylelb Wrote:
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Yes, I recall being told as a convert, that I was an "adopted" member of the tribe. Probably the first time was when I received my Patriarchal Blessing after I had been a member for some months and had become engaged to an RM and planning a temple marriage.

It is definite culture shock to be plopped right into Utah on BYU campus as a recent convert (over a year of course) - it really brings home the tribal nature ..sure did for me!!

It is an important part of why it's hard to leave and one that is often missed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2013 01:58PM by SusieQ#1.

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Posted by: CumomCasserole ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 01:56PM

How often do you post this "tribe" thing? It is a CULT. A fucked up, weird-ass, creepy CULT!!

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: May 22, 2013 02:01PM

I listed all of the reasons why I "prefer" the term: tribe regarding how Mormonism functions in the OP.

We don't all have to agree. We are not Mormons anymore! :-)

Call it anything you want! :-)

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