What a week I've been having!

So, for the past few months my mania has been the train wreck that is the doctrinal/historical mess of Mormonism and how I could have spent decades of my life devoted to it all. I have been devouring pretty anything I could find. I decided this week that it would be healthy to step away from it for a while. My thinking being: Yes it is an utter load of shit, now what? Maybe I will come back to it when I get my hands on a copy of Deconstrucing Mormonism, but for now,I have decided to frame my mania in a slightly more positive light.

So this week instead of devoting my precious spare time to something I know is emphatically not true, I decided to explore things that have always fascinated me. Let me say, I am from Idaho. Although I have always considered myself fairly sophisticated as eastern Idahoans go (read: fairly well read) that doesn't change the fact that I am from Idaho.

This week, I have spent an hour here and there watching Cosmos or exploring lectures and debates on youtube featuring Dawkins, Krauss, Degrasse Tyson, etc. and forgive my for saying but... Holy Shit! Capital HS. I can only describe my time spent as profoundly impactful! I can't convey how eye opening it has all been! If you were talking to me back in say, November, I would have thought that the Spirit was confirming the truthfulness of these lectures, debates, and so on. Now I realize it is so much more. More, more, more.

Again, I am fairly well read so it is not as though many of the ideas presented are entirely new to me, more it is the level of discourse at which issues are discussed. For a guy who has spent his life in east Idaho, the chasm between the level of discourse of these giants of science and that experienced within the Church, the supposed font of all truth, light, and knowledge, it is astounding! Not to mention anything you will ever hear from a GA. How could I have ever been content with the childish, simpering, gibberish that I have been force fed for more than thirty years of my life?

My mind has been completely blown!

Such excitement!

It feels great to think and reason, doesn't it?

Congratulations! Knowing the truth and having the knowledge that there is so much more to living than what you thought is indeed exciting and invigorating.

When I was in my thirtys I lived in the Preston, ID. area (Mink Creek to be exact). It was beautiful in the summers but it was more beautiful to take my family and leave. In truth, None of us have missed it. Oh the tales we could tell!

Welcome to the world of the living! Let your mind be expanded and enjoy life to it's fullest.

I mean that.

The thing of it is that many people experience kind of a rebirth when they leave the church. And they just start soaking up all kinds of information and experiences that they never really "saw" when they were in the church. They didn't experience it because they were wearing blinders their whole lives.

And you are right about how the good stuff compares with what you hear in church. When I first left the church, I read The Art of Happiness, by the Dalai Lama, and was very inspired by it. Then I turned around and read whatever the latest book was by Hinckley, just to give him one last chance to inspire me. I couldn't finish it. I couldn't read 200 pages of "Be nice, it's really good to be nice and you'll like it."

I tried and tried to make the science of the universe and what we learn of cosmology match up with the morg until i realized that they don't work together.

To deny the existence of the big bang is to deny the truth of the universe and to become a son of perdition. I couldn't deny the science and for me the doctrines of the church dissolved into a pile of useless fairy tales.

I was still mormon in deed for a few years after I knew it was all untrue. It took more time to really examine my values and morals. I learned a lot about ethics and what it really means to be a good person. It was a long journey that I'm still on but it is very rewarding.

Good luck and I'm glad to hear that you are on a new path to more truth and understanding. QUESTION EVERYTHING!

Thanks for your responses. I remember a while back a coworker talking about a book he was reading about Krishna and I thought, "What a ridiculous waste of time!" How arrogant can you get?!? Thanks TSCC for ingraining that in me from the time of my youth! There are more things in heaven and earth than dreamt of in TSCC! I get really angry when I think of what my life could have been had I grown up free of this dogma created by a handful of psychopaths. I would love some advice on how to reconcile that psychologically.

You know, this really makes me question the rigor of a degree from BYU.

I know I stopped attending church meetings right when I went off to college -- to a state secular school that was an incredible education. I was a journalism major, and the program I was in required about 75% of our curriculum to be well-rounded; it was a dabble in just about every content area: I took philosophy, Women's Studies, Geology, Botany, Astronomy, higher maths, many literature and psych courses (double minor), History, even a course in Civil Disobedience! The journalism program -- actual classes on the craft -- was only 25% of my college education. They wanted us to think. They wanted us to know a little bit about everything so we could be intelligent reporters, and good interviewers. It was an excellent program.

And I can tell you that a lot of my reading, especially in philosophy, the sciences (oh, geology will kill a testimony, it will) and in women's studies and literature -- all those really made me question everything I'd been taught to date. In fact, I think by the end of my freshman year, I was pretty much apostacized. A real education opens your mind up to considering other possibilities and teaches you how to test those ideas for veracity and integrity.

So I want to know, from the BYU grads: Were you allowed or expected to explore content that made you question? How is an English Lit class taught -- what readings were allowed? Was it all mormon authors, all the time? Were the science texts redacted or "corrected" by professors? Were there philosophy classes with really vigorous philisophical debates? (I fell in love with Immanuel Kant and his relative morality. Loved it! Complete opposite of what I was taught about morality at church, but made so much more sense.) I'm really curious about the material you were exposed to and what classroom discussions were like. Were you allowed or expected to question professors and debate ideas either with the profs or with other students? Or was discussion and debate discouraged because that would bring a "spirit of contention" to the class?

This is a great thread.

Information gathering could be the answer to how to deconstruct/deconvert loved ones. But they're the ones who have to do the gathering. I am fairly convinced it is a matter of changing perspective - how one sees information they are presented with - either on purpose, as in a personal search such as the OP describes or by "accident, as in a well-rounded education such as dogzilla describes.

So, to the queries of "how do I get my [loved one] out", perhaps this is the answer. No magic trick. Just a trickle or a flood of outside information - something may spark off a change in perspective that opens the mind to seeing and thinking about things in a different way.

For me, as a young teen who joined the JWs, the teaching that most of the world's population would be destroyed at Armageddon or in the time period afterwards, prior to establishment of a paradise world on earth again (the way it was meant to be all along) really bothered me for several reasons. One day the thought occurred to me that there are billions of people in the world and most of them were not JWs and never will be JWs and yet they are good people so why should they be destroyed. It was quite a breathtaking departure for me from the lockstep thinking that JWs demand. When a major teaching is seen in a new light, it can be eye-opening. Once that occurs, other dogma is also open for examination by a searching brain.

I too found in Mormonism that the temple was deadly dull - a major disappointment. I had the thought during my very first visit there that never would I be able to return to the temple and watch that boring film EVERY MONTH, as our bishop strongly urged. I knew RMs who did that and often asked me to go with them. Fortunately, at that time the only nearby temple was across the border and that was a fine excuse for not being able to attend very often.

Between deadly dull SMs, especially F&Ts, and the excruciating temple sessions, I too longed for more "meat" in the way of substantive material in talks by seasoned Mormons and (rare) visits by church leaders. Didn't happen. Could not imagine a lifetime of attending such boring meetings or an afterlife spent in much the same way (the missionaries really pushed the idea of me preaching to those in spirit prison, yuck). I did feel bad about myself for being so "sinful" as to be bored.

It's refreshing to just feel how you feel. Although it's taken me a long time to express that truly. Mormons want you to squelch yourself but so do many others, including other churches and family members and generally people pretty much everywhere. At least in this Western culture. In my experience.

Anyway,antimarkite, you sound excited to be learning and I thank you for sharing that with us. Happy exploring!

(One recently exciting mind-blowing trip was shared with Earth by astronaut Chris Hadfield, Commander of the international space station who just landed back on Earth after five months in space, seen here):

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2013/05/16/chris-hadfield-astronaut-speaks.html

Dogzilla,

Having not attended BYU I cannot totally speak to your quesiton. However I did attend Idaho State which offered an interesting spectacle. Here you had highly intelligent, progressive, free thinking intellectuals (I am thinking particular of a philosophy profossor), a majority of them nonmormons, but any that had been in the area long understood perfectly well the ramifications of teaching in a school that was more than half LDS in a community that was also predominantly LDS. I recall being somewhat disappointed with my education because you could tell that they were dumbing it down a little, tip-toeing through certain issues, glossing over others, because they didn't want to experience the wrath of the the community should they, heaven forbid, offend the delicate sensibilities of some ignorant and sheltered mormon kid. Most professors held back. And this is in Idaho! In a state school! I can only imagine how it must be as one travels south, let alone heads into the lion of the lord's den!

I need my mind blown, too. I've been unhealthily obsessing over Mormonism. Can you post some of your favorite links?

almostthere,

I have been all over the place. Here is a link to an interview with Neil deGrasse Tyson that I particularly enjoyed. I would love to see a conversation with this guy and TSM. I can just picture the blank expression on Old Tom's face! But there I go again focusing on something that is false and really, in the vast scheme of things, doesn't matter two shits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ulkX-DA9BM

Also if you do Netflix instant watch, Carl Sagans Cosmos is there in its entirety. That show is 30 years old and wow, when have you ever heard someone in the church thinking of things like this.

Mark



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2013 12:41PM by antimarkite.

Cool, thank you! My TBM grandpa was a scientist and a big Carl Sagan fan. Now, after finding out a lot of the things Sagan had to say, I wonder if he was kinda NOMish.

I started watching Cosmos with my wife, but the cheesy 80s FX turned us off... Now I want to give it a second chance!

Yeah I ended up embracing the corny 80's style as a nostalgic artifact. Once you get past that the program becomes truly thought provoking. Again, this is not just in the ideas suggested, more it is the manner of the discourse that I find refreshing. It wasn't until recently that I realized that the church had actually sapped away all of my wonder and awe for life and the world. The mind blowing referred to in the title of the topic has been less about new ideas being introduced and more about the much needed reintroduction of wonder and curiosity that I hadn't even realized had left me years ago. It is food to a starving soul indeed.

By the way, I am pretty sure I heard that the guy who is at the forefront of developing the ideas of string theory and mutliverses (forget his name) is doing a remake of Cosmos.

Almostthere,

If you haven't been there before, try Ted Talks: http://www.ted.com/talks/tags There is a little something there for just about everything. They're short. And usually quite inspiring in a completely non-religious way (even some of the religion topics are good too). If you've got an iPad/iPhone, they even have an app.

+1 Yes TED talks are fantastic!

Oh, I have watched a ton of those! They are awesome! I even got my wife interested in them.

That's the way I felt instantly and if I could give a parting gift to every one who leaves the church it would be to understand what you have just written antimarkite. Great post.

Thanks blueorchid,
really these past days have been an awakening. I think of my BIL who is a member of the stake presidency and a real ladder climber. He goes to the temple sometimes twice a week and spouts off that nonsense about learning something new everytime. I mean really what a waste! What can you learn about a bunch of secret hand signals code words that I had memorized after my third or fourth time there. I wish that he could open up his mind and experience what I have just watching youtube and netflix. Talk about learning something new! And it isn't sacred or secret it is just there for the having.

antimarkite Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> He goes to
> the temple sometimes twice a week and spouts off
> that nonsense about learning something new
> everytime. I mean really what a waste! What can
> you learn about a bunch of secret hand signals
> code words that I had memorized after my third or
> fourth time there.

The only "new" things you can possibly "learn" in the temple are things you make up as you try to fit silliness A into stupidity B. It's a lie TBMs tell while trying to impress someone else.

The pure joy of expanding one's mind is right up there with sex and nature.

Your post left me feeling lighter. I hope everyone reads it.

Antimarkite,

Thanks for sharing your excitement for learning. Living just south of you (not sure how far, but I'm in Cache Valley) I've always been grateful for the university and the fact that I could satisfy my thirst for knowledge there. I've always had a questioning/skeptical mind and got a liberal education (and have fairly liberal parents compared to most TBMs), so I've been lucky to have always been interested in learning about everything. It's great to read of your experience and remind us (me at least) how amazing it is to be free of the mental fetters of tscc. May your quest take you to some amazing places!

Throw in Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennett and Carl Sagan and you have my favorite people in your list above. Watching them speak, debate, and improve the world with logic is humbling, inspiring, and absolutely life changing....

+ 1000000

When asked my religious affiliation, I state that I am a Hitchenite.

Christopher Hitchens is one of those people that come along once in a lifetime. He is all over Youtube. Enjoy.

Intellectual starvation! That’s what the church creates. I like you could not get enough of everything that we were taught to fear. Intellectualism is detrimental to the church.

Once you stop self-censoring due to the constant rhetoric from the church to avoid thinking too much the flood gates open and you begin to see the church and the universe for what they actually are and that they are not what you were told.

The fun part is posting comments like #%&$ GA bull and not have one ounce of guilt.