I know it wasn't very acceptable in Joseph Smith's time but I don't know if there ever was a time that it was. It's funny because if any of you have read Tennis Shoes Among the Nephites, it was apparently commonplace to get married at 14 years old. That was the first and only time I have heard of that being normal but maybe there really are times I am not aware of.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2013 12:56PM by nickson.

with their parents' permission.
Depending on the laws in the state.

What word did you really mean to use?

I meant normal. I fixed it because I know that it has been legal in many situations, but I was wondering how "normal" it is.

This doesn't answer your question, but it gives the media age for marriage by decade since 1890:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005061.html

The 18th century was about the same.

Bottom line: 14 was never typical. But it was allowed.

When it happened, I think it was most often upper class families with arranged marriages that cemented powerful family ties like royals, or desperately poor people who couldn't afford childhood but at least married someone their own young age.

And JS was never actually legally married to any of them.

:


In
the ancient world,Middle Ages and Renaissance it was the norm for girls to marry as soon as they were capable of getting pregnant.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> :
>
>
> In
> the ancient world,Middle Ages and Renaissance it
> was the norm for girls to marry as soon as they
> were capable of getting pregnant.

And has continued to be, and still is today, for millions of girls around the world. Many marriages are arranged by entire families or clans negotiating with each other...many are arranged by parent(s), often without either the bride or the groom knowing that the negotiations are going on (many girls find out for the first time when they--along with everyone in their "group"--is getting ready for a wedding and suddenly THEY are the ones being made-up, decked with jewelery, and dressed in fancy clothes...and many (to this very day) are being "married" by being captured unawares (when they are walking to school, working in the fields, etc.), taken to the groom's home village, and then raped...which means, in that place, "legal marriage" that the girl is unable to get out of.

Some of these things happen in North America and Europe, too--usually among immigrants who are following the culture of their upbringing.

As soon as, and at whatever chronological age, a girl first shows blood (her first menstrual period), she is considered to be "of marriage age" in much more of the world than most of us here can imagine. In those places (and, unfortunately, there are many of them), and whether she knows it or not, she is likely to be a bride (and possibly pregnant) before another month passes.

There are millions of girls this is true of. I am writing this as a plea for them: please be aware that this IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW, TODAY!!!...and hopefully, with awareness will come (over time) change.

I think of these girls every single day.

Every single day.

:-(

Most people died by 30.

While "technically" your statement may be (sort of) correct, it is VERY misleading, as if it was something the Mormon Cult would put out. Yes, the AVERAGE age at which a person died was lower than it is today, but that is only because of the high infant mortality and death from childhood diseases. When you have 50% of the population dying under age 10, it brings down the "average."

Studies have shown that once a person reached maturity (late teens/early 20s) their life expectancy was not much different than it is for a similar aged person today.

That isn't entirely true. About half of the children died of childhood diseases and a lot of women died giving birth,but if you survived those things you could live to a ripe old age and many people did. Don't confuse how long you could live with average life span

Juliet had just turned 14, and look how she ended up!

Sure. It depends on the culture of the people and the times.
Now days, in the US it depends on the state laws, but it's done.
Remember when Jerry Lee Lewis married his first cousin, once removed at age 13, and said it was Ok as he was 14 when he got married - late 50's.

Yes, people marry at young ages.

I think the objection re: Joseph Smith Jr was his so called inspiration from the Lord to be polygamous and polyandrous.
That just set people's teeth on edge.

nickson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know it wasn't very acceptable in Joseph Smith's
> time but I don't know if there ever was a time
> that it was. It's funny because if any of you have
> read Tennis Shoes Among the Nephites, it was
> apparently commonplace to get married at 14 years
> old. That was the first and only time I have heard
> of that being normal but maybe there really are
> times I am not aware of.


During the medieval period, young women were routinely married between the ages of 12-14. Of course, menarche didn't usually occur until around age 18, and if you lived to 40 you were considered elderly ... but that's about the only time when it happened commonly.

Women started their periods later but 18 is ridiculous when you consider how many women had kids by 14 or 15 or even younger. Margaret Beaufort gave both to Henry Tudor at 12 and Shakespeare made the comment that many girls Juliet' s age were mothers.She was 12 and ,yes ,I know she is fictional, but Shakespeare was still talking about the customs of his time


v



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2013 03:51PM by bona dea.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Women started their periods later but 18 is
> ridiculous when you consider how many women had
> kids by 14 or 15 or even younger. Margaret
> Beaufort gave both to Henry Tudor at 12 and
> Shakespeare made the comment that many girls
> Juliet' s age were mothers.She was 12 and ,yes ,I
> know she is fictional, but Shakespeare was still
> talking about the customs of his time
>
>
> v

Hence the word *most.*

You're talking about a period approximately 300 years *later* than what I cited anyway. Medieval =/= Tudor, but that's a historian's nitpick.

Onset of menarche is getting younger and younger all of the time; younger menarche was not unheard of at the time, but it was not usual.

I stand by what I said. For the women we know of from ancient times till the Enlightenment it was the norm to be married and have several kids by 18. They were not the exception, they were the norm

Here's my version of the question:

Has there EVER been a time where it was normal to secretly screw around on your wife by having sex with a 14 year old girl, and manipulate the girl into giving her 'consent' by promising her and her family goodies in the afterlife, and do so while you are in a position of authority and with the added assistance of her own father's influence?

Perhaps the wrong question is being asked, since we're really not discussing that he "married" her - he just wanted the conjugal visitation part.

Now THAT'S a good question!

Having been a lemming to unproven rumours as being facts concerning Smith and his 30+ wives, I'll answer this :)
As to your question, social monogamy (as proven in our day and age) is a very normal action for one married spouse to commit upon the other spouse. Illegal and legal definitions concerning age and or sex and or sexual orientation vary from era to era.
But was it 'normal' to do what you claim/think Smith did sexually with a 14 year old? No. It's claimed he did the same thing with 30 other females in a three year period. So it's no more normal then if he'd did it with any aged female. Adultery by our definition is adultery if you're married legally within a state of America and you have sexual relations with anyone else..
But now some interesting information.
We can assume Helen was a virgin when she 'spiritually' married Smith. We assume Smith would have been taking her to bed as often as possible in the year they were married. Maybe a hundred times or more out of 365 days. Why is that number important of how many possible times they had intercourse?
It's important because they are on record as having no child. Not even an early aborted fetus. That's important information because two years after Smith died Helen remarried and popped out ELEVEN CHILDREN. That proves Helen was as fertile as a female could ever hope to be or wish she wasn't.
Smith and Emma were an EXTREMELY FERTILE couple. Seems anytime they got together Emma was pregnant.
Now that's important/significant information because it's alleged by you and many many others these two very, very fertile people were doing it for an entire year and they both shot blanks.
Now consider this info. Smith engaged in 'spiritual' polygamy.
Smith engaged other elders to engage in 'spiritual' polygamy. On record other elders and their multiple wives while Smith was alive were popping out kids left and right. Everyone but Smith. Not one of his wives has been shown to factually of had a child by him.
Want to know something else that's interesting? Several wives of Smith that never had a child with him, remarried after his death and popped out kids left and right with no problem.
Point being; there's more evidence to show lack of sexual actions between Smith and his wives then there is evidence that proves there was sexual action taking place.
With Smith, rumours are many and that's a fact.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2013 03:04PM by chucky.

Polygamy and of course bigamy were illegal at the time, and Smith knew it. He couldnt be open about it, aside from the fact that he hadnt even been open with his followers at large about his "revelation". He had to sneak around to meet his wimmins, and there were a lot of them. He didn't have the time or opportunity to have frequent sex with each of them. With most it was probably only once or a few times. By the women's own admissions, Smith really got around.

It is possible Smith never did it with Helen, who was not a willing participant in all this. Besides, she may not have gotten her period yet, at only 14. Girls on average matured later then than they do now, which is historical fact.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2013 03:20PM by serena.

now, I know that it is not a hugely reliable way of going about it, but Chucky - You have heard of the withdrawal method, right?

"Of every 100 women whose partners use withdrawal, 4 will become pregnant each year if they always do it correctly.
Of every 100 women whose partners use withdrawal, 27 will become pregnant each year if they don't always do it correctly."

I got this from http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/birth-control/withdrawal-pull-out-method-4218.htm

who's to say he wasn't just smart about his screwing around? and if he was doing it correctly then the chances of him impregnating and then that pregnancy going to term are fairly slim.

I knew someone who was getting a Ph.D. in American History and worked for the Church Historical department. He mentioned that several of the General Authorities in the early age of polygamy used a special Silk Hankie for intercourse, convincing the women that it had been blessed in the temple for that purpose. The historian who told me this believed that Joseph Smith had used this approach to seduce women, telling them that their bodies would not actually come into contact because they were protected by a spiritual veil. Apparently one of these hankies is in possesion of the church historical department.

Emma Smith caught Joseph in the act with Fanny Alger, and told this to many people, Joseph confessed the same to Oliver Cowdery and others. Fanny was quickly taken a way from Ohio so Joseph could not be prosecuted. Fanny's descendents know this is true and their is a legal record of court testimony.

The other likely explanation is that Joseph Smith was infertile, or incapable of acheiving erection or orgasm without some form of fetish, something the Church does not really discuss.

What marriage? In the eyes of the law, which is exactly what we're talking about, Smith could NOT marry anyone while being married to Emma.

None of Smith's phony "marriages" were real marriages except to Emma.

A married person has the rights associated with marriage. Smith screwing around on Emma gave no rights to any of these girls, no protections under the law and no recognition by the state.

They were never real marriages. Even the "wives" didn't know who was married to Joseph. How that can ever be compared to an actual marriage is beyond me.

Depends on how far back you want to go. Up until the last few centuries people married young and died young, and infant mortality was incredibly high. A family might have ten children three of whom survived to adulthood, which was pretty standard. Women died in childbirth in great numbers, and battle and disease took a toll on young men. Many were married at 14 and old and sick or dead by 30.Very different conditions than in more recent times.

This has nothing to do with what Smith did, which has been pointed out was not a marriage in any legal sense. What he did was in no way "normal" in 19th century America any way you try to spin it.

actually. yes. In the middle ages and even before it was quite common place for young girls of "standing" (read wealthy or royal) to be betrothed or married almost as soon as they were out of the womb. The youngest I've found in historical accounts for marriage was age 3 and the marriage took place by proxy. Also the groom was 3 as well, not a dirty old man. When they reached an age where they could be separated from their family they would then be taken to the household they were to marry into and raised there. Eleanor of Aquataine was married to the King of France at age 15. Isabella of Angoulême was married to King John (signer of the Magna Carta) at age 12. For the common folk.. don't really know. my guess is no. Since no land deals or peace treaties could be secured through those marriages so they probably did whatever they wanted.

Also. Are we forgetting the tales of child brides coming out of places like Afghanistan? while it's not culturally acceptable here, there are many places in the world where it's still the norm, often when sad results for the child.

12 was considered the earliest permissible age for marriage under church law during The Middle Ages but betroythals took place earlier.among the nobility.Marriages were not supposed to be consummated until the girl had her first period. There were excdptions

I would also say it was something done in the Middle Ages and mostly by the royalty and noble classes, with a betrothal ceremony being done by proxy, and often with the couple growing up together in the groom's household before they were married as teenagers. One reason for that is that childbirth complications was a leading cause of death for women, and for the most part, that was because of an infection that was caused by a lack of hygeine as doctors and midwives didn't wash their hands.

Even then, it wasn't normal for an adult to screw around with a 14 year old, as Thomas Semyour found out when he flirted with a teenage Elizabeth Tudor who became Elizabeth 1. He ended up literally losing his head over the issue. While Joesph Smith didn't lose his head, what he did still wasn't considered a normal thing.

Actually Seymour got in trouble because he was married to Elizabeth's stepmother who was carrying his child (they were her guardians) and because Elizabeth was required to have permission from the king's council to get married as she was an heir to the throne. Her age was not an issue. Besides Seymour lost his head for attempting to kidnap the young king.

Child marriage is a primitive custom, just as is polygamy. JS justified all his ideas because he saw it in the Bad Book. The bible can justify any immoral behavior. To marry someone before they have a chance to self-realize, gain an education or have a chance to make adult decisions is abusive in the extreme. It's akin to slavery.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2013 04:12PM by rationalguy.

Calling a practice primitive lacks cultural relativism and is somewhat chauvinistic.

It has never been acceptable to "marry" a fourteen-year-old when you are twice her age and married already and supposedly the most perfect representative of our Creator on the earth.