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Posted by: piper ( )
Date: January 24, 2011 11:56AM

My brother texted me last night. I know he probably didn't sleep last night. I am going to go ahead and call him C for this post, so things don't get too difficult to follow.

Our TBM mom drove over to see him yesterday and bring him his cat. She was very pushy and demanded he tell her everything about him being gay. She basically dragged him out of the closet. She sobbed and cried about how he was making her miserable and how she was a shitty mother because only 2 of her kids are active. She seems more upset about him not going to church than him being gay. She insists that he can change.

Mom has told me before that she doesn't "hate" gay people, she feels sorry for them. She says that one boy she knows who is gay is so unhappy. She seems to have a more compassionate view that the official Mormon one, but is very misinformed.

She has also told me in the past that she believes that boys who are molested become gay. Apparently there were some incidents with C, two of my other brothers and a sister, and a female cousin when they were little. C did not give specifics as to what happened, just that there was a game of truth or dare and that sexual stuff happened. He told me he thinks that is part of what made him gay. I assured him that he was born gay, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I have heard before that a certain amount of experimentation is pretty normal, the incident happened between a group of 5 kids, 4 of them being the youngest 4 of my sibs. The oldest brother in question, B, seemed to be kind of the instigator. C(the one who is gay) was the second youngest involved. C says B was younger than 8 when this all happened, which would make C 4 when all this started.

My first question is this: Is this normal? Or is this predatory behavior by B? Could B have been molested and was just repeating what had been done to him? B has been severely depressed for many years, only in the last few months does he seem to be improving. C told Mom about all of this yesterday, and she is pissed. I am concerned she might place blame on B for C being gay. I also don't want C to be confused about it. Also, should all this be brought out into the open? It is so overwhelming for me to think about what to do about this part. It makes me sick.
Cl2 recommended a book for me to read before, "Journey of a Gay Mormon," I think it was called. Would this be a book my TBM mom would read? Where can I refer her and C to get more information about what it means to be gay? Thanks so much for your support and advice so far, it really means a lot to me.

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Posted by: Truthseeker ( )
Date: January 24, 2011 12:01PM

Gay men and women are definitely born and NOT created by social pressures or experimentation.

I can imagine why the gay man your mother knows is so unhappy. Anyone associated closely with the church who doesn't conform to the norm will of course be unhappy. Happiness can only be found by being true to yourself, not a faceless corporation.

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Posted by: DNA ( )
Date: January 24, 2011 01:07PM

Truth or dare type sexual experimentation is normal among children, and if threats and force is not used, is usually pretty harmless.

The damage that will likely, from the sounds of it, be caused by your mother as a reaction to it will probably be more damaging.

More than half of males in the U.S. in one published study (used in a college text book, but don't have the citation) had their first sexual encounter in their life with another male. Your brother would be pretty normal in that regard, and it doesn't make half the guys in the U.S. gay.

Being Gay is on a continuum. There is as Gay as you can get on one side, and as heterosexual as you can get on the other side. Then there are a thousand points in between. The closer you are to the middle, the more an event can sway you a little ways. But you wouldn't be completely heterosexual, have an experience and move all the way to the other end of the scale.

Just some thoughts.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: January 24, 2011 01:18PM

I'm rather speechless?!?! or lacking in exactly how to help you. I can see why your mother would be upset. I HOPE she comes around.

You might also look for Carol Lyn Pearson's book "No more good-byes." The book I referenced before is "Perfect: The Journey of a Gay Mormon." I don't remember the author's name and I'm a state away from home so can't look at the book. I bought it off lulu.com

I thought it was absolutely excellent. I don't know that your mother will. Carol Lyn Pearson (spelling) also has a monthly newsletter. I don't know how to get that info to you. The best place to look is on her daughter's blogspot or the blogspot for ex-wives of gays--but Carol Lyn is one of the best people to talk to about this situation.

Her book "Good-Bye, I Love You" is excellent, too, but is more about her relationship with her husband.

This is just such an emotionally charged issue. I felt the same way when I found out my boyfriend is gay--that living the gay "lifestyle" (and I hate that term now--what exactly is the gay lifestyle?)--would only be very lonely and depressing for him. That was a LONG, LONG time ago that I felt that way.

I'm more concerned about your brother actually--he is finally learning to be open and honest about himself. The one thing I can say is that secrets destroy. My whole family is so much better off since we quit living the secret. It is very empowering to be where we are now.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: January 24, 2011 01:27PM

Read tomclark's post about the gay mormon thing. Maybe it could help your mother?

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Posted by: Kenny Jimno ( )
Date: January 24, 2011 03:37PM

The Best thing you can give your Mom is "God Loveth His Children". I was put out in the Ensign Magazine by Elder Jeffery R. Holland. It was what keeps Joy in my life as a active Latter Day Saint.

This can be found online at www.LDs.org

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Posted by: piper ( )
Date: January 24, 2011 06:45PM

Is this a serious reply? Are you an active Mormon who is gay?

I looked this up and read all of it. It made me cry. It was horrible ugliness disguised as understanding and tolerance. He said that people who are gay must be completely alone, not even hanging around any openly gay people, in the hopes of being cured! And if you live your entire life being celibate, that hopefully you can be cured in the hereafter!

The one halfway decent thing Mr. Holland said was that experimentation as a child does not "make" one gay, that it is harmless. But the other 15 1/2 pages are awful.

So I ask again, if you "suffer from attraction to the same gender," how do you manage as an active LDS, being treated like a leper with a disease? A disease that only faith can cure, if you have enough faith? And since you will never be cured, you will always feel like there is doubly something wrong with you, not only did you catch "the gay," you don't even have the faith of a mustard seed to cure yourself.

God, I hope you are not subjecting yourself to this mental and physical and emotional torture. There is no cure for being gay. You are born that way and you will die that way. But it is not a tragedy. You can have a relationship that is fulfilling with someone who loves you for exactly who you are. The tragedy would be if you wasted your entire life hating yourself for who you are. You have no control over that. You are who you are, and I personally believe that it is for a reason. Please find a way to embrace and love yourself, and live an authentic life that can make you happy.

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Posted by: Lillium ( )
Date: January 24, 2011 07:10PM

You're gay, and that brings you JOY? Oh my. You poor schmuck.

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Posted by: jeffnlb ( )
Date: January 24, 2011 07:59PM

Lillium, please explain...

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Posted by: jeffnlb ( )
Date: January 24, 2011 08:28PM

Topped so Lillium can explain what her comment meant. I really want to know.

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Posted by: Rebeckah ( )
Date: January 24, 2011 09:18PM

It's right up there with the Miracle of (un)Forgiveness. For your own sake I hope that you are able to come to a point where you realize a loving God would never have made you homosexual and then condemned you to a life of solitude. That's just so sad.

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Posted by: Lillium ( )
Date: January 24, 2011 09:30PM

So sorry, my response was supposed to go to Kenny Jimno's post. I was suggesting he's a poor schmuck for feeling joy at Holland's spew.

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Posted by: Kenny Jimno ( )
Date: January 24, 2011 10:54PM

Hey Piper,

I BY NO MEANS, was trying to offend you or anyone that might also feel I am a schmuck (a jewish word I still don't know what it really is) I referd you to that as a way your Mom can understand what it means to be gay.

As we have always been taught as members of the Church is to always refer to scripture first. Your mother will hear sounds and promptings from the spirit. likewise it is a good way for you Mom to understand your brother.

I do understand both sides and am very active in the Church. As Ward Mission Leader I am always with the Missionaries, Members, leadership...ect. Yes. Gay thoughts cross into my mind and the Leaders of the my Ward do have compassion for me knowing that I am gay! For me well I do my best not to allow pride to get in my way. I have had a ton of same sex partners. I was very content with things like that. but I did not know joy untiL i read that artical from Elder Holland. I live with my Ex and he is in the local spanish speaqking Branch. we have been together scince1994

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Posted by: piper ( )
Date: January 25, 2011 09:55AM

Kenny Jimno,
I was not offended at all by your post. I just could not believe that you found joy in that. But still, to each his own. If you have genuine happiness as an active and gay Mormon, I am not going to tell you any different.

MJ, Thanks for posting. It was difficult to sum up what my mother said properly. Yes, I agree she does not have the attitude that she should have. I was just trying to say that she was not as ugly about it as I would have expected from a TBM.

She has a long way to go, as do I. I told her that I intend to read the books recommended to me in order to understand C as best I can. I hope that she will be open minded enough to do the same. Some of the things she said were about hoping that her kids would change, and that she was trying to be a good example for us so that one day we would go back to church. That really hurt me. We had such a terrible relationship when I was growing up, and to hear that she still is not accepting of me as I am sucks. I can't begin to imagine how much worse C feels. Her attitude is going to make or break her own family, and she doesn't even realize it.

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Posted by: voltaire ( )
Date: January 25, 2011 10:09AM

The LAST thing anyone who is struggling with their own sexuality needs to read is MORE of that 19th century hillbilly BULLSHIT posing as factual advice that speweth forth from the mouths of those bigot idiot GAs.

By your own admission you are 100% incompetent to give anyone advice about being gay and feeling NORMAL. What you ARE is NOT gay because you're still letting yourself be the pet of a bunch of bigoted Mormons. What you ARE is a homosexual: a clinical diagnosis that you haven't even accepted as normal within yourself. If you stay in the mental place you're in, you will never be gay no matter how many cocks you suck. Keep in mind that Piper LOVES her brother, and she probably doesn't want to see the Mormons totally fuck up his head as completely as the Mormons have fuck up yours.

What you need more than anything is about 1,000 hours a year with a competent NON-MORMON psychologist in results-based therapy, because what you are right now is the same thing as a Jewish Nazi. Your first challenge is admitting how fucked up a Jewish Nazi would be and then applying the answer to yourself.

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Posted by: piper ( )
Date: January 24, 2011 06:21PM

Thanks for responding. I feel really stuck in the middle here. On one side, I am trying to support my brother, and on the other, trying to gently educate my mother and get her to support him as well. Like walking a tightrope. I just want to be prepared and know just what to say to both of them.

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Posted by: DNA ( )
Date: January 24, 2011 06:27PM

Perhaps ask your mom how hard she has to try to not to have sex with other women?

When she says that she doesn't have to try at all, tell her that she was born that way.

Don't know that she'll make the connection, but it's one that I like to do anyway.

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Posted by: piper ( )
Date: January 24, 2011 07:39PM

It is so weird. My mom just called me. She did not want to tell me everything they talked about, and I was content not to ask, also not telling her I had been texting with C. She is all worked up. She is hoping that he "changes his mind," and thinks that someday he will fall in love with a girl. I told her that is called being bisexual. She also said she believes that sometimes it is about the connection to a certain person, regardless of their gender. Any thoughts on that? And she has two cases where she swears someone who was gay is now dating someone of the opposite sex.

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Posted by: DNA ( )
Date: January 24, 2011 07:57PM

piper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> She is hoping that he "changes his mind," and
> thinks that someday he will fall in love with a
> girl. I told her that is called being bisexual.
> She also said she believes that sometimes it is
> about the connection to a certain person,
> regardless of their gender. Any thoughts on that?
> And she has two cases where she swears someone
> who was gay is now dating someone of the opposite
> sex.

If a person is near the middle of the scale, a good experience, or a bad experience either way could have an impact.

If I was right in the middle bisexual(I'm heterosexual) and I had the awful first experience that a Gay guy on the board has written about over the weekend in another thread, then had a great experience with a woman... That might be enough for me to be happy with women and not experiment with men again.

If I was 3/4 the way down the scale towards Gay, that one bad experience probably wouldn't dissuade me over time.

Good experiences, and the feel good chemicals in the brain that they flood our bloodstream with, are very rewarding. Bad experiences are similar in a negative way. But you would need to be near the middle for it to play out as a change of sexual preference it would seem.

If you were always curious about guys, or at least since puberty, a bad or a good experience isn't likely to change it.

I've had a bad experience with a woman, but it didn't stop me from being heterosexual at all. Just turned me off for a bit.

If the church all of a sudden said that Gay is what God wants, and heterosexual sex is bad. I wonder if your mom would have been content as a teen to never have sex her whole life based on what the church said? And if she could make herself a lesbian?

Just some thoughts.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: January 24, 2011 07:55PM

Well, someone who is gay can date someone of the opposite sex. I always love it when someone says to me, "Well, they are married so they can't be gay." Well, so is my "ex"--he is STILL married. The way we look at things these days--we go to the same dentist. I went in October and the new assistant--I was pretty sure he was gay and then he said, "My wife." I didn't think, "Nope, not gay." I thought, "OH NO! Not another one." I never said a thing to my ex. He went to the dentist a few weeks ago. He called me and said, "Hey, what do you think of the new assistant?" Same thing--

What I've said before--a Native American gay--who used to post here (I don't know how often). He said one day that the LDS church asked him to hate 2 aspects of himself. That blew my mind. To ask my ex to CHANGE from being gay means my ex DISAPPEARS. Gay is a very essential part of him--and makes him the unique individual he is. We are asking these people to DISAPPEAR--to cease to exist.

AND I didn't read the article that someone posted. I couldn't bear it as it was. I've read enough of the LDS church's propaganda about gays--but to ask them to never associate with another gay? So--that means I shouldn't be able to associate with any heterosexuals?

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Posted by: vasalissasdoll ( )
Date: January 24, 2011 08:12PM

I'm bi...following that logic, I should shut myself in a bomb shelter until Christ shows up.

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Posted by: en passant ( )
Date: January 25, 2011 01:48PM

...you have so much wisdom and insight into these kinds of issues.

ep

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Posted by: Kenny Jimno ( )
Date: January 25, 2011 06:36AM

Your Mom is active in the church let her know you love her no matter what. Is your brother also active?

Maybe, pray to HF asking what he would have you do. listen carefully, in your prayer let HF know what you will do whatever it is that is pleasing him. If it God's will he will surly tell your regaurdless of any religion.

Leaders of the Church acknowledged that there is no cure for Same Gender Attraction.

The most important thing, let all of your family know that you love them. That your concern is out of that same love.

When you talk with them, ask them to pray as well. Allow the spirit into the room. Keep pride outside at the curb.


Something outstanding will come out of this meeting if it is done with love.

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Posted by: DNA ( )
Date: January 25, 2011 08:57AM

Kenny Jimno Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your Mom is active in the church let her know you
> love her no matter what. Is your brother also
> active?
>
> Maybe, pray to HF asking what he would have you
> do. listen carefully, in your prayer let HF know
> what you will do whatever it is that is pleasing
> him. If it God's will he will surly tell your
> regaurdless of any religion.
>
> Leaders of the Church acknowledged that there is
> no cure for Same Gender Attraction.
>
> The most important thing, let all of your family
> know that you love them. That your concern is out
> of that same love.
>
> When you talk with them, ask them to pray as well.
> Allow the spirit into the room. Keep pride outside
> at the curb.
>
>
> Something outstanding will come out of this
> meeting if it is done with love.


This post may win the prize of the day for Best View Of The World Through Rose Colored Glasses, and it isn't even 7:00 am.

Do I understand correctly, if this is all done correctly, a very nice ghost will haunt the room and use it's magical powers for good in this situation?

What if 10 groups all over the world are doing it at the same time?

Is there more than one Ghost that is used for such hauntings? Or does the ghostly person you were talking about divide itself through a similar process as cell division, and magically fly through the air and walk through walls and get to the other people who are trying to, "Allow the spirit into the room" and work it's magical powers in more than one place at a time?

I'm wondering if taking off the rose colored glasses, and using reason and persuasion and accepting that what is...is, would be more helpful than voodoo and magic spirits?

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Posted by: voltaire ( )
Date: January 25, 2011 10:14AM

DUMBEST ADVICE EVER. And Kenny Jimno needs to seek professional help as swiftly as possible: he's nuttier than Ted Haggard.

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Posted by: voltaire ( )
Date: January 25, 2011 10:48AM

She is behaving EXACTLY the way Mormon mothers behave when faced with this news. She has swallowed the Mormon party line hook, line, and sinker and is running hard with it. Your job is to GET THAT HOOK OUT OF HER HEAD AND TURN HER AROUND.

The only way you can do that is to speak kindly, gently, and patiently with her, but 1,000,000,000,000% DISAGREE with EVERYTHING she has already said in no uncertain terms. She is fabricating irrational arguments. If she hasn't already done so, soon she will be looking up Spencer W. Kimball's advice in the Miracle of Forgiveness. She is also beginning repeating what she has heard in church because she's trying to solidify their arguments in her head before she goes back to your brother for Round 2, Round 3, Round 4, etc.

If she can't learn to control herself, you will need to inform her that if her goal is to rip your family apart by the seams, she will successfully accomplish that in short order by proceeding in the direction she has been following. If she wishes to have any kind of normal family in this lifetime, period, at all, inform her that she will drop the church party-line of gay-hate immediately if not sooner and start listening to, reading, comprehending and applying rational, factual information immediately. Get as many siblings on board with you as possible and inform her that you nor any of your siblings will support her in this cult-induced behavior.

If you don't stage this strong of an intervention in her line of thought now, you're going to have FAR WORSE demonstrations of total hysteria out of her in no time. She is already irrationally convinced that innocent events from deep childhood are the cause of differences in human sexuality. She is already irrationally convinced that he can "change." She is already irrationally convinced that her parenting is at fault somehow.These positions are TOTALLY ILLOGICAL. If she gets hard-assed about these things, you may have to insist that she speak with representatives of PFLAG (Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays). In fact if I were you I would do that sooner than later. There are chapters in every city of any size, and these kind people can talk more intelligently and compassionately about your mother/brother situation with her than anyone outside of a non-mormon counselor. If she persists in being outrageously irrational, insist that she speak to a licensed non-mormon psychologist.

If your brother is NOT 100% prepared to enter this kind of commando negotiating with her at this point in his development and self-acceptance, you should STRONGLY advise him to begin SERIOUSLY LIMITING her access to him through ANY means of communication until she learns to control her hysteria. She will only damage him worse than the cult already has by trying to manipulate him. According to you she has already started: this needs to be stopped immediately. You can not have rational dialog with an irrational person.

I wish you, your brother, and your mother the very best possible family relationship in the future. In order to have that, you may need to be rather ruthlessly harsh with your mother now, because the church has already prepared her to be their weapon against your brother and who he is, and make no mistake: THIS IS A PSYCHOLOGICAL WAR. THE CULT WILL USE THIS TO DESTROY YOUR FAMILY IF YOU LET THEM. Best wishes.

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Posted by: Jon ( )
Date: January 25, 2011 09:14AM

Hey Kenny,

Is there a cure for opposite gender attraction?
What about a cure for no gender attraction?

Now, what if the OP's brother (like the Prophet did when considering the policy on Blacks being banned from the Priesthood) prays to HF and says "Dear Heavenly Father, I've decided that I am going to be gay, I think it is natural for me. If you don't want me to do it then give me a sign".

I'm willing to wager that no sign will come and therefore will you then accept that HF is happy for people to be gay?

Your post also expects us to accept that you, a man with "active same sex attraction disease from which there is no known cure" (sarcasm intended) is currently co-habitant with an ex boyfriend and the calling to which your local leaders (who know your predilection for men) gives you the Ward Mission Leader calling where you get to work closely with single young men...

BS!

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: January 25, 2011 09:22AM

"Leaders of the Church acknowledged that there is no cure for Same Gender Attraction." Then perhaps they should start supporting gays living a full, genuine life including marriage.

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Posted by: maria ( )
Date: January 25, 2011 10:00AM

"Same gender attraction" isn't a disease. Please go away.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: January 25, 2011 09:28AM

To answer your questions, kids doing exploring is not unusual and it does not turn anyone gay of straight. I would have to ages of each of the kids before I would start to speculate about any sort of predatory behavior.

But I also want to comment on something you said "She seems to have a more compassionate view that the official Mormon one, but is very misinformed." No, I would not say "feeling sorry" is a more compassionate view. It is still saying that there is something wrong with the person. The last think I want is pity from hetros about me being gay.

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Posted by: piper ( )
Date: January 25, 2011 09:58AM

Sorry MJ, I wrote something and it is halfway up the thread. You are right. Her attitude sucks. I was just trying to say that it was not as bad as the official LDS stance, or at least I hope it isn't.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: January 25, 2011 10:48AM

I can not tell you how many hateful people have told me that the nasty stuff they were doing to gays was out of love and compassion, that they only want what's best for gays, blah, blah, blah. In reality, it was only hateful BS.

To know for certain how your mother truly feels will take some time and some paying attention to her behavior.

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Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: January 25, 2011 10:03AM

This website may be helpful to your brother and your mom. Some of the Mormon terminology rubs me the wrong way, but the intended audience is Mormon, so . . . .

http://www.ldsresources.info/professionals/response.shtml

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Posted by: voltaire ( )
Date: January 25, 2011 10:52AM

She is behaving EXACTLY the way Mormon mothers behave when faced with this news. She has swallowed the Mormon party line hook, line, and sinker and is running hard with it. Your job is to GET THAT HOOK OUT OF HER HEAD AND TURN HER AROUND.

The only way you can do that is to speak kindly, gently, and patiently with her, but 1,000,000,000,000% DISAGREE with EVERYTHING she has already said in no uncertain terms. She is fabricating irrational arguments. If she hasn't already done so, soon she will be looking up Spencer W. Kimball's advice in the Miracle of Forgiveness. She is also beginning repeating what she has heard in church because she's trying to solidify their arguments in her head before she goes back to your brother for Round 2, Round 3, Round 4, etc.

If she can't learn to control herself, you will need to inform her that if her goal is to rip your family apart by the seams, she will successfully accomplish that in short order by proceeding in the direction she has been following. If she wishes to have any kind of normal family in this lifetime, period, at all, inform her that she will drop the church party-line of gay-hate immediately if not sooner and start listening to, reading, comprehending and applying rational, factual information immediately. Get as many siblings on board with you as possible and inform her that you nor any of your siblings will support her in this cult-induced behavior.

If you don't stage this strong of an intervention in her line of thought now, you're going to have FAR WORSE demonstrations of total hysteria out of her in no time. She is already irrationally convinced that innocent events from deep childhood are the cause of differences in human sexuality. She is already irrationally convinced that he can "change." She is already irrationally convinced that her parenting is at fault somehow.These positions are TOTALLY ILLOGICAL. If she gets hard-assed about these things, you may have to insist that she speak with representatives of PFLAG (Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays). In fact if I were you I would do that sooner than later. There are chapters in every city of any size, and these kind people can talk more intelligently and compassionately about your mother/brother situation with her than anyone outside of a non-mormon counselor. If she persists in being outrageously irrational, insist that she speak to a licensed non-mormon psychologist.

If your brother is NOT 100% prepared to enter this kind of commando negotiating with her at this point in his development and self-acceptance, you should STRONGLY advise him to begin SERIOUSLY LIMITING her access to him through ANY means of communication until she learns to control her hysteria. She will only damage him worse than the cult already has by trying to manipulate him. According to you she has already started: this needs to be stopped immediately. You can not have rational dialog with an irrational person.

I wish you, your brother, and your mother the very best possible family relationship in the future. In order to have that, you may need to be rather ruthlessly harsh with your mother now, because the church has already prepared her to be their weapon against your brother and who he is, and make no mistake: THIS IS A PSYCHOLOGICAL WAR. THE CULT WILL USE THIS TO DESTROY YOUR FAMILY IF YOU LET THEM. Best wishes.

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