Due to my recent experiences with Mormon Fundamentalists, I think it's time to fight back, and release some of the info I have that shows what crooked, wicked people some of them are. I'm going to start with the leaders of the Allred Group, also called the AUB or Apostolic United Brethren. I have attended some of their meetings and know many of them personally. This is not an attack on the entire group, but on its leaders who were involved in this crime. I hope that some of them will find this info and realize what kinds of crooks they have as leaders or stop others from joining this group.

I have uploaded a document that was created by a Private Investigator (Who was also a Fundamentalist, but not from this group) in 1996 and it shows which leaders of this group were involved in stealing $3.5 million (not just $1.5 million) from a lady named Virginia Hill. The case is now public information, which she won, and they were ordered to pay her back $1.5 million plus interest over a period of time. But to this day they claim they did no wrong, and continue to run their church as if they were saints. Read this story below plus see the document I uploaded showing who was involved which proves how corrupt these people are. Owen Allred, the former leader of the AUB was involved in this money laundering as well as Lamoine Jensen who is currently the leader of this polygamist group. They felt that since this lady's ex-husband worked for the mafia, that it was their right to steal her money and use it for "good." I think it will do good to get this document out in the public.


Uploaded document
http://pdfcast.org/pdf/aub-money-laundering


More of the story from a blog at:
http://sisterwivesblog.blogspot.com/2011/08/curious-case-of-virginia-hill-vs.html

The Curious Case of Virginia Hill vs the Apostolic United Brethren
An actress from Detroit MI, Virgina Hill was the former wife of a Detroit bookie. She came into a large sum of money - basically liquidation of assets when she divorced her bookie husband, money gifts from former lovers, and money obtained from gambling.

In 1989, she literally took the money and ran to Las Vegas, hiding her savings in the form of small bills in her uncle's home in St George Ut. Her uncle was a polygamist, who belonged to a religious group started by a John Shugart, who just happened to be a former member of the Apostolic United Brethren (AUB). Her uncle introduced her to Shugart, who in turn introduced her to a Daniel Matthews. Matthews attempted to persuade Hill to invest her entire $1.5 million nest egg in a ranch in southern Utah. Hill was told this ranch would be the future home of Shugart's religious group. Hill declined the offer, but she did give Shugart $40,000 to hire a real estate broker to assist him in obtaining the property.

Hill thought that was the end of the matter, and believed her remaining nest egg remained safe in her uncle's home.Unfortunately, that was not to be the case. Although Shugart and Matthews did hire a John Putvin as their real estate broker, Hill's entire $1.54 million cash nest egg mysteriously disappeared - stolen from her uncle's home. And according to Shugart, Hill was not the only person flamboozled.

You see, Matthews was not actually a convert to Shugart's fledgling polygamist group, but rather, was still an active member of the AUB. According to Shugart, instead of Matthews and Putvin using the $1.54 million cash to purchase the ranch, the men put the cash in cans and delivered those cans to Owen Allred, who was, at that time, the leader of the AUB. To add insult to injury, the money was then used to pay off property owned by the AUB, and to purchase a car lot in Salt Lake County and a vehicle among other things.

Because of the convoluted transactions, it took Hill (assisted by former members of the AUB who had knowledge of what happened) until 1994 to discovered what really happened to her money. But by that time, the statute of limitations (four years for fraud) had already run out.

In 1998, 4th District Judge Anthony Schofield dismissed Hill's lawsuit, ruling "I find that Hill did not act reasonably...She was on notice that her money was gone and she knew at least some of the responsible parties. Yet she did nothing for 7 1/2 years." Hill protested that she had no idea what had happened to her money, until she was contacted in 1994 by former AUB members. In 2001, the Utah Supreme Court agreed with Hill, ruling that "...accrual of the cause of action is not complete until discovery of the pertinent facts." In other words, Hill was within the statute of limitations when she filed her lawsuit in 1995 - approximately one year after she finally was able to discover what happened to her money.

In 2003, Hill finally won her lawsuit, and was awarded $1.54 million plus over $1.8 million in interest. Owen Allred was ordered to pay damages of $30,000 to Hill - an amount acknowledging Allred's role in the sordid affair as it represented the $30,000 cash tithing he accepted from and later transferred back to co-defendant Putvin in the form of a cashiers check, as a means to launder Hill's money. Lamoine Jensen (who succeeded Allred as leader of the AUB) was also fined $30,000. The AUB was ordered to pay $250,000. AUB member James Sandmire (who owned the car lot purchased using Hill's money) was found liable for $500,000. Matthews and Putvin were ordered to pay the remaining balance of the judgement.

Another judge, however, felt that Hill had "unclean hands" because she couldn't prove she obtained her $1.54 million legally, and reduced the judgement to her original nest egg of $1.54 million. Hill appealed that decision, and in 2009, the Utah Supreme agreed with her, stating that it didn't matter how she obtained the $1.54 million and that she was entitled to seek more than the $1.54 million she originally lost.

DQ,

Was there any connection between the AUB and Warren Jeff's FLDS, and if so, did they try to disassociate themselves with FLDS when the sh*t went down against Warren Jeffs?

Are there mostly rivalries among separate fundamentalist groups in Utah, Arizona, Mexican Colonies, or are there some alliances?

I know very little about polygamy so forgive me if I am asking dumb questions or ones that go beyond your purview. I don't expect you to have knowledge of every group, due to geographical distance, or for other reasons.

A naïve question here, out of curiosity. Do any of the plyg colonies in Mexico marry local Mexican women, or is it strictly forbidden?

From your post the other day, when your friend referred to the Black LDS missionary as an "it," instead of a person, it seems that racial purity is high on the priority list.

Hope none of these questions is offensive. I don't mean any offense at all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2013 10:09AM by senoritalamanita.

There is very little connection between the AUB & the Warren Jeffs FLDS. Actually, all other fundamentalist groups that I've met are quick to let you know how disgusting Warren Jeffs is.

I don't know of any alliances between any of the groups, most of them believe the other groups don't have the real authority. The independents, which aren't an organized group but a mixture of people from the groups, the LDS church & people who just practiced their religion individually without a leader. This is the group I was mostly involved with.

Warren Jeffs came out of a town called Colorado City, which overlaps both Utah & Arizona borders. I think the Arizona side is called Hilldale. They built it there to make it easier to flee from the authorities across whichever state line they needed to. I once visited a town called Centennial Park. They are literally across the street from Colorado City, but they broke away from Warren Jeffs and made their own leaders. Even though they are just across the street, they rarely mingle, and they both pity each other and think the other is apostate. The group in Centennial Park was featured in a TLC show a few years ago, and I got to meet the woman who were in it.

I don't know much about the colonies in Mexico marrying Mexican women. There is a little known revelation where Joseph Smith and the apostles were commanded to take wives from the Lamanites, so that they could quicken their process to becoming "white & delightsome."

There is supposedly a group in the Yucatán Peninsula who are ancient Nephites that kept themselves pure for 2000 years, and are in contact with Joseph Smith. They say they are preparing the stones in order to bring them up to Missouri to build the temple there. A few fundamentalists claim to have visited this town and met Chief Ecta Etchna, and saw how they live polygamy & have their own sets of plates as scriptures. This story goes so deep I'm only scratching the surface, but some fundamentalists believe this is where the Indian Prophet will come from.

Also marriage in Centennial Park & Colorado City is all arranged. Their leaders decide who marries who, and it is taboo to date girls outside of their group, although I know one man who joined the group with his girlfriend, and they permitted him to marry her.

Racial purity is very important to most fundamentalists. I heard one comment about how people pay so much attention to how they breed horses, yet most people don't care about how humans are bred. So most groups keep their marriages within their group, and two groups I know of, the Kingstons & the Kelches, stay within the family and marry cousins. They believe they are direct descendants of Christ, and that they have to keep their bloodline pure.

Colorado City is in Arizona. Hildale is in Utah. Centennial Park is actually a few miles down the road. The FLDS practice arranged marriage, though right now there are no marriages at all, and existing marriages have been dissolved so married couples are required to live celibate lives. Warren Jeffs has dictated this arrangement and he alone has the sealing power. The FLDS believe that if they are sufficiently faithful in following Warren's commands, they will be worthy to have Warren back in their presence and god will miraculously release him from prison. There have been no marriages among the FLDS since 2006 when Warren was arrested. Existing marriages were dissolved in late 2011, I think. Warren is serving life plus 20 years form raping children. I think his first eligibility for parole date is in 2038. At some point the FLDS are going to have to figure out that Warren isn't coming back and get on with their lives because, we all know how well celibacy worked for the Shakers.

As for the Centennia Park people, they probably do practice arranged marriage, but I went to a panel several years ago at Sunstone, and the women said they had a lot of input into the arrangement and they could ask for a particular husband.

There is a public school in Colorado City. Most of the students are from Centennial Park, as Warren forbid public school quite a few years ago. CPers are also much of the staff at the school (El Capitan school, k-12.)

CPers are much more "normal" in the way they live. Many wear normal clothes and have normal hair. They also send their young people to Cedar City to attend Southern Utah University. A professor there told me that they are good at book learning but lacking in critical thinking skills.

The FLDS and CP groups broke apart, I think in the early 1980s when there was a leadership change. The FLDS leader demanded "one-man rule" because only one man at a time held the priesthood keys on earth. The CPers wanted a ruling council. One man rule has been disastrous, obviously, for the FLDS after a narcissistic sociopath (Warren Jeffs) seized power from his father after his father had a stroke.

There is a small breakaway group that has split from Warren Jeffs. Rather than make changes that might have led to a healthier society, it seems to have retained one-man rule and it is starting to look more and more like its dysfunctional parent.

Whoops, thanks for the correction. I always confuse which side is which. The Centennial Park guys did say that they can put in requests for who they marry, but it's not guaranteed. In one of the sacrament meetings I listened to, a guy got up and testified of the inspiration of the brethren, because he did not tell them who he was interested in. He prayed that if it was meant to be they would set him up with the girl he loved, and then told the leaders he would trust in whoever they chose for him. So when they chose her, he was ecstatic and it further strengthened his "testimony of the brethren."

Another thing that bothered me though is that most of the members were lucky to have more than one wife, since the leaders took the majority of them. They had huge mansions full of women while the members had regular sized homes. They were still nice homes though compared to Colorado City, which looked like a dump when they gave me a drive-thru tour. I never got to speak to anyone in CC, I was told they didn't like outsiders asking questions.

DQ,

You wrote:

"There is supposedly a group in the Yucatán Peninsula who are ancient Nephites that kept themselves pure for 2000 years, and are in contact with Joseph Smith... a few fundamentalists claim to have visited this town and ... saw how they live polygamy & have their own sets of plates as scriptures... some fundamentalists believe this is where the Indian Prophet will come from."

Fascinating! Please expound on the Indian Prophet story. I have never heard of it. Is it an LDS or a fundamentalist story? Is Chief Ecta Etchna this prophet? If not, who is he? Do fundamentalists believe he is alive at the present time? I'm a bit confused about the time frame in your above referenced paragraph.

Before attending BYU, I went to Dixie College. I remember seeing polygamists taking up an entire row in the movie theater in St. George. This was mid to late 1970s.

One of my classmates was a TBM from St. George. He was obsessed with Colorado City and would take car rides there, but would be shooed away or escorted out. He later became a news reporter. He was so enamored with studying church history, that it always amazed me how he never found his way out Mormonism, especially with his flair for investigative journalism.

When I lived in Hawaii, one of my respected [non LDS] religious leaders went rogue, and started believing in a prophecy that Christ's second coming in 2013 would begin near the Solomon Islands, and then Jesus Christ would hip hop across all the Pacific islands, to L.A., and then proceed through the rest of the continental United States.

That is when I resigned from all religions. I had had enough!

Thanks for your input. I enjoy reading your posts.

Here is a document that was given to me by a fundamentalist who was helping me study about this "Indian Prophet." I'll copy and paste it here, as well as upload the pdf for easier reading. They do still believe a chief is alive, but the name is a title passed down by his predecessors. Another big part to this story not mentioned here is that it is believed by some fundamentalists that this tribe possesses the ark of the covenant.

http://pdfcast.org/pdf/echata-echa-na-the-mighty-and-wise-one


The Coming Of The Great White Chief

Natoni Nez-Bab, P.H.D. graduate of Carlyle and Haskell Universities is a full blooded Navajo, and is fully authorized member of his tribe's High Council of Sixteen, Holding the position of Tribal Historian. Mr. Nez-Bab majored in archeology and scientific research and has since served on many archeology expeditions throughout North, South, and Central America with the Smithsonian and Carnegie Institutions. He is also a linguist of considerable ability, speaking some 3 of 4 modern languages and twenty-seven Indian dialects. During an archeology expedition to Monte Alban, near Caxaca in Southern Mexico in 1935, Mr. Nez-Bab first heard and came into contact with the Great White Chief and his legendary White Indians, who have since come into exceptional news prom¬inence to the Latter-Day Saints. Subsequently, Mr. Nez-Bab was commissioned as Tribal Delegate to represent the Navajos (largest tribe of U.S. Indians at the great Indian conventions which have been held in Mecheagan, Mexico, and which have resulted in the complete amalgamation of all Indians tribes and nations on the Western Hemisphere as a united people under the Great White Chief. So impressive was this great White Chief, Echata Echa-Na (Mighty and Wise One) that he was unanimously elected as Chief all Chiefs and their law giver and teacher. Under him they have determined to be and remain a united people by casting aside all enmity, hatred, malice, and bickering and recognizing of blood brotherhood of their people under one God and one leadership. Mr. Nez-Bab has had sev¬eral extended visits with the Great White Chief and his people, and has found unusual favor with him in that the Mighty and Wise One adopted Natoni Nez-Pab as his own son in a sacred Indian Ritual. Therefore, Natoni Nez-Bab speaks with authority in telling us the following thrill¬ing story of this Indian movement, which we pass on to you for all it is worth, knowing many will believe therein. A Pearl of Great Price. In connection herewith is recommended that the reader carefully study,
III Nephi 2l; Isaiah 11; Zechariah 6:12,-I5; D&C 85:7; II Nephi 3;

The White Indians

Chicaraga Indians are a nation of white or very light-skinned Indians living in the Southern part of Old Mexico. Their walled city lies in an almost in accessible section of the high mountainous region deep in the south of Mexico, almost to Guatemala. To reach this Shangri-La of the new world, where the white man's civilization has not penetrated due to his complete exclusion, one must go first to the capital city of Caxaca, State of Caxaca, then the ancient ruined city of Mitla, from roads or highways that lead to this fantastic city. After five days of almost continuous climbing, one comes upon some high table land that opens up into a magnificent valley of transcending beauty. It lies an elevation of about 12,800 feet. Within this valley is secluded the beautiful walled city of the White Chicaraga Indians where it has re¬mained untouched and unspoiled by the evil of civilization since it was built long, before the times of Christ. Their habitations cover an area of about 9.5 miles long by about 11 miles wide, or about 100 square miles At the northern end of the valley' "1steep rock cliffs, some two or three hundred feet high complete their protective encirclement with guarded gates being the only entrance and exit. The Law in whose veins flows Indian blood shall enter into their domain, and the White man has been thus far effectively barred as well as war-like tribes of Indians.

AlI the buildings, homes and Temples are very light or white in color in the inside as on the outside and present a very attractive appearance, forming a city which approaches perfection in its layout and architect¬ural designs. The people are tall and stately in stature, being from five feet eight to six feet one in height. Their skins are very light, their hair, brown to very black. Their eyes vary from hazel to deep blue and black. Their clothes are all woven by hand and differ considerable from all other Indian tribes. Instead of wearing the customary shirts and trousers, they wear long, white robes that reach almost to the gr¬ound and which they fasten down the front with three sets of strings. A girdle is wrapped about the waist and long sleeves are sometimes tied at the elbows with a draw string. Certain symbolic marks are placed up¬on the robe, over the breasts, naval, and knee and on the head over the forehead. A cowl-like hood is worn over the
head, and white, moccasins cover the feet. These people regard these symbols sacred. Men, Women, and children alike are dressed in these woolen robes, and all them live a life of simplicity that Is very mean to perfection in its order and arrangement. One of them does not say, "This is mine and that is yours." but all possess everything together and use it according to their needs. The farmers, for instance, put everything they raise into the great storehouse. The wool weaver, pottery maker, and leather workers do likewise with their products and then all is made available for the common use of all the people as needed.

They have no money and need none of themselves. All commerce with Indian tribes is carried on by the barter or exchange systems. Among themselves there are no rich and poor, and everyone shares the abundance they have. Once when I was presented with a beautiful pair of moccasins, I offered a handful of pesos in return for them, only to be rebuked by the Great White Chief with the spoken words, "My son our hills are full of that metal, and we find it useful only for tools and ornament." They are a very clean people, having no vices for bad habits, such as the uses of tobacco, or liquor. They live principally upon a vegetarian diet and fruits and melons and raw vegetables. And all are very health¬y and beautiful in their appearance, walking, erect with excellent posture that gives the impression of almost effortless motion or a gliding movement. They are very devout and pray several times during the day and night, each prayer being very sincere; they follow the belief that "I am my brother's keeper. Should any sickness or injury or sorrow fall upon one, everyone else is ready to do all possible for the unfort¬unate one, as each person feels that he or she should be responsible for each others feelings. No ill feelings nor misunderstandings exist among them because the usual basis or motive for such conditions do not exist among them. All are happy and they know not of greed, or hatred or malice, or scorn. Theirs is the perfect life.

The Legend

This mode of living has been with them many generations Just as the firm tradition and beliefs have been handed down from generation to generat¬ion that they should live this way. Many years age, according to their belief, as there are stars in the sky, a great event happened to their ancestors living in this valley. The legend reveals that there was a great storm with fearful earthquakes and a thick darkness for several days. Then after the darkness was lifted, a Great White God descended to them from heaven. He was draped in a beautiful robe made of the feathers of the Quetzal bird. This great being stayed with the people for a short time, and taught them how they should live and put away their evil ways by. living the laws which he taught them. Then before he departed, he promised them that if they would live faithfully by these laws and abide by his other teachings, some day he would return and live among them again. During rain storms or heavy wind and hail storms that are attended by darkness which might remind them of the legendary times when their Great White God came to them, the Chigaraga people prostrate themselves in prayer upon the earth, for they firmly believe in the re¬turn of their Great White God. Each sincerely voices his feelings as to how he would welcome his return among them. To keep their faith alive they have proclaimed the Quetzal bird, as a sacred symbol of him for they believe that the robe was made of feathers from the bird. Consequently, severe punishment and torture are meted out to anyone harming the Quetzal bird. They have a set of records written in books made of buckskin which have been handed down from generation to generat¬ion. The records are regarded by them as highly sacred, for they con¬tain the history of their people for many generations prior to the coming of the Great White God. They are the only Indian tribe, as far as I know, who possess a set of records originating in B.C. times. They are written in a language no longer spoken by them except by the Mighty and Wise one who learned it from his father as a responsibility handed down from the beginning by their family. They have also follow¬ed an unusual custom which has resulted in their population remaining limited to the present size of about 8,000. This custom or law requires that a women may bear a child only once every seven years. Hence, the birth and death rate has remained about on even balance so they have not spread from the lights of their walled city and their own culture and customs.

Echata Echa-Na (The Mighty and Wise One)

The Chicaraga Indians are presided over by a Great White Chief called Echata Echa-Na meaning the Mighty and wise one. This title has been held by his chief-tan fathers before him for many generations. Echata Echa-Na is now a man of about 90 years of age. However, in his bearing and the vigor of his appearance he looks to be more like a man of 45. His height is 6’ 3”, and he weighs 230 lbs.
He walks very erect, and with such ease that he seems to float along rather than plod as men of that age do. He has a very commanding figure, and one immediate¬ly senses in his deep spiritual qualities that makes him a man of majesty amidst thousands. Millions of his worshipful followers look to him for guidance and leadership. When he speaks, and it is what the Great Spirit whispers into his mind, one instinctively desires to obey his words.


The Great Amalgamation Of Indians

In May of 1938, Echata Echa-Na Chief of the White Chicaraga Indians, called his runners to the Great Council House and told them to deliver a special message to the Indian Tribes nearby, and to have them in turn deliver it and relay it as far as a bird flies to The North and to the South, until all Indian tribes received it. His runners took his message to the chiefs of the nearby tribes and told them that at the beginn¬ing of 1939, the Chief of each tribe was to send a representative to the Great Indian Conference to be held at Lake Patzcuare in Micheacan. Each Chief in turn was to send runners to the tribes beyond them until the message had reached all the tribes throughout the hemisphere. The response to his message was tremendous; when the conference was held in April of 1939, governmental officials of Old Mexico estimated that more than 130,000 Indians, representing every tribe on the continent had gath¬ered at Lake Patzcuare in the State of Micheacan in order to attend this mighty conference at the request of the Great White Chief. After meeting together for one week, during which time good will was firmly established among them, the Great White Chief invited them to return again in 1940. A similar large number of Indians delegated from all the tribes of the continent responded, and this time by unanimous vote, they determined to merge one another into one great nation with Echata Echa-Na, the Mighty and Wise One, in great esteem, and all of them look to him for guidance and leadership. Once each year since then, he has called them to this great annual conference where he had presided over them. The Indian delegated takes his teachings back to their tribes where they endeavored to live up to them, and teach them to their brothers.

A Great Welfare Program

During these times, a great welfare plan has been put into effect in¬volving the storing of food, grain, vegetables, fish, meat, etc. There has been great activity among all the tribes in the land with dehydration of food supplies and storing them away in concealed places until now they have supplies and enough food sufficiently durable to last them 5 td 7 years. Tribes with surplus of any commodity have exchanged or shared with other tribes who have shortages, or a surplus, until all their supplies have became well balanced and will be distributed among them. This has been done under well organized leadership, which has in¬volved delegated authority to predominate tribes in large geographical centers. Leadership in South America, for instance has been given to the Quio and Auinche Tribes under Chief Etana Donab, while all of Central America goes to the responsibility of the Quinches under Chief Chichisums who incidentally, is second in power to Echa-Na him¬self. Mexico, is presided over by the White Chief and all United States Indians are under the Navajos with Chief Lone Tree at their head, while all Canadian and North Western Indians under the leadership of the Sioux, with Chief Blach Pong at the head. During the great conference of 1940, at Lake Patzcuare the Mighty and Wise One advised all the Indian delegat¬es that the time had come; according to the voice of the Great Spirit, for them to build a magnificent temple to his name in fulfillment of the promise and ????????? that had been handed down by them, that the Indians should do this thing. He showed them the plans for this great and beautiful structure, which when completed would cover as much ground as a Salt Lake City block. Five great quarries were selected in Mexico, Central America and in the Northern part of South America, and some 20,000 Indians went to work cutting and polishing beautiful stones for this purpose. One quarry is in the Northern part of Colombia near Soldade. Another at Estaciena Marii in Honduras another in Chian¬tla, Guatemala, a fourth at Autlan Ilidalgo, Mexico, and the fifth at Labiace, Jalapa, Mexico. All stone is of white marble, but each quarry cuts a separate and distinct size to the finest specifications. Special Key stones are also cut and shaped somewhat like a dumbbell, which interlocks each stone above and below and to the side with its neighboring stones like a chain, so that even a strong earthquake would not dislodge them. At several places in Old Mexico at the present time, Indian people of various nations are hand-polishing woodwork for the interior trim of this great temple, while in other places in Mexico and Central America other Indians are polishing precious stone such as Jasper, Moleschite Turquoise, and forming these with beautiful inlaid work of exquisite and intricate design to be used for the interior adornment of the temple. All preliminary work that can be done is rapid¬ly nearing completion, and the finished materials are sent to the sea shore for shipment by water to the temple site.

The Great Migration

Plans for the great migration are now being revealed that will involve the movement of tens of thousands of Indians from Mexico, Central and South America to their promised Temple site. In order to take care of this migration, great preparations have been made which involve the careful selection of special camp sites where great stores of food have been secreted. Indian tribes along the route have made extensive preparation to assist their brethren in this great migration, and are ready to offer them whatever aid they need. The first group will journey many many days toward the rising sun, until they come to the mighty river that flows from north to south. They are to go up this river until they come. to the special stone which will indicate to them where they are to build the temple, and there they will stop and commence the shipping of their supplies and materials to this location. The second group is to journey to the west not many days until they find a range of mountains where only the morning sun shall strike. "They shall follow these mountains to the North many many days until they meet with another white people who do not speak their language but whom they will recognize by certain marks, signs, and symbols, and the two shall amalgamate to¬gether and become one certain people under one leadership. After this they shall travel together many many days towards the rising sun, where find their brethren and they will assist them in building temple and the beautiful city within a wall. Later as time other bodies of Indians will arrive at this spot and other buildings and additions will be erected in the city. The entire city, homes, and public buildings will be built of stone from native surroundings but the stones for the temple with the polished wood and finishing will be transported by barges and ships from the quarries heretofore mentioned. At the last great Indian conference at Lake Patzorarok The Great White Chief repeated his strong prediction again. "What the water has taken from the land, and the land has taken from the water, what man has taken from man, each by the command of the spirit, shall come back to his own.” By this time warning he meant that all things shall revert and be restored to its original state as God first designed in a in a great restitution of all things. He repeated this statement on several occasions, and at the last conference he spoke of the years that go by so fast by saying, "Another milestone has passed and there is so much to do with but so little time to accomplish it." (Note: One of these con¬ferences is reported in the magazine section of the Salt Lake City, Utah Aug. 8, 1945, “To my Brother, the Great White Leader, salutations:
When he, the mighty and Wise One comes among you, He shall speak and all shall listen unto him only. All things shall be given unto him such as properties and possessions, etc. He shall have everything at his dis¬posal to do with as the Great Spirit directs. All things which the In¬dian people have shall be placed at the top, and those who are at the top shall be placed: at the bottom for you have rejected and left behind the things that the Great Spirit has given you in times past. He and the Mighty and Wise One will select those men who are best fitted for each office and position. All wealth and possessions will be used by both sides under his directions. All wealth of the Indian people will be used and combined with your wealth, and all food supplies shall be used by both sides as needed. Neither side shall horde or keep anything hidden from the other, but all shall have a share equally of the total. Great farms will be worked by both white and Indian people. Flocks and herds will be raised by them both. Great large building shall be built by the great place or where the mighty temple shall be built. White people and Indian people shall both work together building the beautiful city also. Many shall remain here and many shall go from here. Seven years more will be required to complete all things on the temple. Many will refuse but many will accept. And those who shall take will be as a handful of sand on the seashore. Some will fall away but I will hold all that are in my hand. Some will deny or refuse me. Many will not understand , many will not care Nevertheless, all things shall be done and all laws of the Great Spirit shall be obeyed in good faith. The righteous shall do great things, and the wicked among you shall be destroyed. All things shall be done in a quiet way. We shall come peacefully as we are accepted peacefully, but if we are not accepted peacefully, we will come to destroy, for those who hold these things in scorn and derision shall be destroyed., It is the voice that speaks, even the voice of the Great Spirit has spoken to him and asks that he be reconciled with This people in this great amalgamation for he and they shall be one.
He has spoken It is finished.

Echata Echa-Na, The Mighty and Wise One.

Oh, and I don't know that this story exists anywhere outside of Mormon Fundamentalism by the way.

Also you mentioned that after seeing that guy from Hawaii take things a little too far and that's how you were able to realize that religion is wack. That's kind of what it was like for me, just took me a lot longer. I met many self proclaimed Mormon Fundamentalist prophets, a girl who could talk with Jesus & Joseph Smith, another girl who was bff's with Moroni, several guys who thought they were the next "mighty and strong one", guys with lots of wives, a Jewish convert to Mormonism who is trying to restore the Hebrew part of the gospel to the church and several others who claim to be able to read my mind. It just got so crazy that I had to distance myself from everything, and that's when I decided to rethink what I believed in.

In a way I guess we can thank these people who take it to the extreme to show us how ridiculous Mormonism is. I say, if you claim to be a Mormon, you better believe in EVERYTHING Joseph Smith & Brigham Young said, even the crazy, embarrassing things, as well as all the other Mormon prophets. You also better believe in all the scriptures. You can't pick and choose. Either it's all true, or it's not.

Thanks for the info on the Indian Prophet, DQ.

I appreciate your time and patience in answering my questions.