I mean who does the church think it is, the NSA? If the church is simply GPS tracking the elders, they can probably get away with that, but if they actually use the device to secretly listen in on what the elders are doing, or to watch them on the camera, wouldn't the church be breaking the law? And before you tell me I am paranoid, this is the same church that teaches its mission presidents to lie on their taxes, and to illegally withhold the passports of the elders, if they have them.

If I was a missionary, I would get my own i-pad, and periodically "kill" the battery of the church i-pad, by pulling it out of the back. I would then tell the Mission President that my charger was a piece of crap, as to why the snooping was not working, all why using my own i-pad to do whatever the hell I wanted to, unknown to the members.

Actually, if I was a missionary, I would just come home in the middle of the night, and not tell anyone.

I don't think you can remove the battery from an iPad. So, it's pretty much always "on", unless it's completely dead.

Regardless, if iPads are in the mishies' futures, you're absolutely right about shenanigans going on. More power to them!

If the iPads or computers are owned by the church, then they have the right to monitor how they are used.

dk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the iPads or computers are owned by the church,
> then they have the right to monitor how they are
> used.


That is true for the company your work for also. Yes. They own the system, and they can monitor it.
So be prepared to have your web use, email,cell phone etc. used against you if they want to.
Same for the missionaries.

Yes the LDS church is so offensive, that would take a Nuclear Weapon to an Anthill!

are you saying that if us regular, non-missionary folk are spied-on by pro-LDS folk on PC's that are NOT owned by said-spied (I mean nosey-assed folk) - That it is -in fact- illegal?

I'm sure they will make the missionaries buy them and then sign a waiver agreeing to be monitored.

Yes, this. It's just like the church email system. At one point (I'm not sure about now), it was - if a missionary wants to be able to email family/friends, then they had to use the church system. Well, there was a little disclaimer they had to agree to (which most likely didn't read) saying that it was monitored. Could be the same with ipads.

The reaction of LDS Inc would be that missionaries are 100% volunteer, were completely briefed and agreed to everything being monitored, possibly bought the Ipad themselves and signed up for the monitoring, and were certainly allowed to break the agreement at any time. LDS Inc would be able to spin this so hard it would not even be worth arguing.

People who do not have first hand knowledge of LDS missionary realities will see the missionaries as whiners. Unless one has actually seen the harm caused by LDS Inc, one cannot really understand the enslavement and abuse that occurs.

A better solution might be the weaponization of the Ipads, by using them to ask the missionaries hard to answer questions. It might also help to get them to admit to investigators that the volunteer missionaries are not trusted enough to have full internet access. It might also help to publicize that even though the volunteer missionaries carry the internet in their hands, they are not allowed to contact and communicate with family and friends. That screams cult louder than anything.

I agree completely. The brainwashing is very, very strong when you're a missionary. I would have paid for the iPad and signed the waiver, I'm sure. That said, I would also have jailbroken the iPad. ;) Just saying.

Our family's experience with the missionaries a few decades ago is that there is not a one that lived the rules - all of them that is. The little White Bible was used to their advantage!

They found ways to watch TV, read the newspaper, read books, magazines, call home, have items sent like cameras and more money! Some of them left the area, some of them went home, some of them called girl friends, and on and on. They manipulated anyone and everyone they could to get what they wanted and it worked!

Enslaved? That's a hoot! :-) Not the ones we knew -- !! And we have the photos to prove it. Albums!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2013 06:26PM by SusieQ#1.

No shit, if you live in the white and delightsome land of the morridor, yeah.

So are you genuinely saying the former mishies here with PTSD from subhuman conditions and circumstances are ...what exactly? Not telling the truth? Making it all up? What do you really think of their stories of abuse?

SusieQ, sometimes I feel quite certain that you must have belonged to a different Mormon church than the one I'm familiar with.

I could tell you plenty of sad missionary stories, because I certainly know some. I'm talking about people I know personally, where I know how the missionary situation affected them during their missions and afterwards. I find your suggestion that missionaries are just out there breaking rules left and right and generally living it up to be... well, ridiculous. Maybe you knew a couple of missionaries who did what they wanted when they wanted. But most of the missionaries I have personally known take the rules quite seriously, and I have seen some sad (and sometimes even heartbreaking) situations result from that. I know that others here would say the same thing, because it happens far more often than any of us would like.

Kismet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SusieQ, sometimes I feel quite certain that you
> must have belonged to a different Mormon church
> than the one I'm familiar with.
>

There is a lot of differences, depending on where you live and the individuals themselves. Some of our children served missions. One is still a member, another is not. Still no badmouthing or anything else.


> I could tell you plenty of sad missionary stories,
> because I certainly know some. I'm talking about
> people I know personally, where I know how the
> missionary situation affected them during their
> missions and afterwards. I find your suggestion
> that missionaries are just out there breaking
> rules left and right and generally living it up to
> be... well, ridiculous. Maybe you knew a couple
> of missionaries who did what they wanted when they
> wanted. But most of the missionaries I have
> personally known take the rules quite seriously,
> and I have seen some sad (and sometimes even
> heartbreaking) situations result from that. I
> know that others here would say the same thing,
> because it happens far more often than any of us
> would like.


I'm sure there are. I just don't know any personally. I have heard of some ugly situations that cause a lot of problems.
My comments are directed to my personal experiences.

MDM (Mobile Device Management) software can do everything, including GPS tracking, GPS plotting (ie, historical data, how often an area was visited, how long people stayed in any given area, speeds, etc.), browser history tracking, application lockdown, synchronize photos and videos taken with the device, and bunches of other things.

It's not illegal in any way shape or form. The only gray part is if a conversation is recorded and neither the missionary nor the person on the other end of the line has consented to it. Most states are 'single-party,' ie, only one party on a call needs to know that it's being recorded for it to be legal (in this case, the missionary).

There are easy ways to beat the software. Hop on a bus to make the GPS think you're moving. Remote desktop to another PC somewhere, and use its browser so nothing pops in your own browser history.

I calculated the TCO is going to be right around 28M/year if all 50k missionaries get a device, which is a steep amount to swallow (that's roughly $10/year for every active man, woman, and child in the church).

Thank you for the analysis!
To put the cost of running this new device program in perspective, see the figure in the tithing section of Mormonthink which says that tscc gives about $5 per member per year to humanitarian aid.
Are there really no better uses for this money?

Also, the investigators may have less privacy, whether phoning or texting the missionaries.

Plus, maybe the extra money that they have just asked the members to pony up for all the new missionaries may be going toward buying the Ipads.

Would it make it harder for inactives or apostates to chat with them about taboo subjects? I've heard that the new technologies have recording devices implanted in them.

I think that it's noteworthy that the laws being described are all US laws. Europe has much more respect for the individual's privacy and laws in the EU and other nearby nations may be different. This is a global corporation that we're discussing.

You think this would be the first illegal thing the church did that the morgbots wouldn't even think to call the cops about? And yes, not illegal, but certainly not in the spirit of "I teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves".

If it is used to be damaging and abusive to an individual, it can be illegal, it's already immoral. However, that shouldn't stop people from communicating/ soicalizing, which is what helps make a human healthy. If someone was monitoring me right now- let's say- I don't personally care anymore. My attitude is "wow- you know to read, now why aren't you capable of talking TO me?" This is supposed to be anonymous, to My knowledge, and I did not put my email on here at all. Soo.... if someone was monitoring me, someone is REALLY obsessed or Really Bored, I don't care either way. Because I don't care what people think about me either way. :)

+ a Million.

laws against recording conversations, etc. are centered around UNKNOWING doing such things.

when you call a company, you're put on notice: "Calls may be monitored or recorded for quality (etc)"

So a member recording a speaker (including in-person) without knowledge (implied permission) isn't ethical, but WITH knowledge/permission will generally be viewed as O.K.

So, if you set up an Obvious camera in front of a speaker, the speaker is 'presumed' to know that recording is happening; a concealed palmcorder is another matter.

Exactly, I know I've been monitored, and you know what phrase I've heard the most (and hate)? : "You can't prove it." I absolutely hate that phrase, but instead of being paranoid about how I act or worry at all about being monitored. Because, monitored or not, that is the truth, I cannot prove it. It doesn't make Monitoring Ethical in any way (because I never chose that), I'm just not going to give two fucking s*its about it. I've chosen to be who I choose to be if anyone likes it or not. Thank You guynoirprivateeye.

I guess if they don't want to be spied on....they'll need to put their phones/ipods in the microwave and shut the door!!! Just don't turn it on of course.



Or "forget" and leave it under the seat in the car when they go into the apartment!

I thought of the scene in V for Vendetta where the police investigator turns up the noise in the office and asks some difficult questions of his partner.

It's not right the missionaries can't talk on the phone to their family . . . how else are they going to plan their escape from their mission when they realize it's a fraud????