I talked with my brother for the first time in so many years yesterday. I reached out to him. I had recently become aware that his son had come out a few years back and I had heard from the same source that he was "struggling" with his son's orientation.

They were dead wrong.

My brother fully supports his son and gay marriage. I had to ask him if these feelings weren't prompted by his son. My brother was honest. They were.

Apparently, my brother's years of attempting the impossible dream of being the perfect Mormon have come crashing down around him and he is perfectly fine with it. He knows that he risks never getting another important calling in LDS Inc. and is coming to terms with it.

I was surprised by two things in talking to him and it had nothing to do with homosexuality. The first was how natural it was talking to him. Our whole lives I have felt awkward around him. This new him isn't awkward to me. I was quite surprised.

The second thing was his ability to support LDS Inc. regardless of his divergence from their path. Now to say I was surprised is not quite true. I was surprised that he could support gay marriage, admire other Christian religions, think that LDS Inc. should minister to its members instead of tell them to pray and read more, and yet tell me as honestly as he did these things that LDS Inc. was a good place for his kids.

Stockholm Syndrome must be another word for Michael Ash's "Shaken Faith Syndrome."

My brother has basically consigned himself to Mormon purgatory in their path to perfection because he actually want to perfect himself and has turned to other non-LDS Inc. sources to do so while propping LDS Inc. up as a "good organization." Begs the question for me how many other "sort-a" TBMs think along these same lines? I bet droves do. But regardless of how long my brother stays TBM (till death does he depart from it I believe) he represents for me how "out of tune" these geezers are - and they are supposed to be the most "in tune."

Maybe impossible problems are actually strengths for LDS Inc. ala polygamy, fairy tales about "translating" ancient texts and whatnot. I told my brother I hold religions to the standards they claim for themselves - judge them as if a benevolent God existed and they represent the benevolence of this creature towards what this being supposedly created. They setup this standard (religions) not me. And LDS Inc. sucks more than so many others. If my brother wants to cleave unto their ideals and ideas of "good" I told him it was fine with me. Just don't try to reconvert me. Oh, and I will tell you how I feel about Mormonism and I did.

Makes me crazy. Too bad he can't see the impossible problem of fitting Mormonism into some kind of "spiritual path" leader. Who knows, maybe his gay son will be the undoing of his TBM-ness. God knows my gay-living-straight brother was not understanding of this father of a gay son. He was the most adamant about how gay marriage is bad when these two brothers of mine spoke about his son.

There's got to be some cog-dissonance going on there. For now, he's able to compartmentalize and not see that the so-called inspired leaders can't see the obvious.

But he's forming his own opinions, and that may eventually crack the control the church has in his mind.

I posted about this before, I think, but I knew a lot of Mormons who were like that...outspoken feminists, equal rights activists, gay rights advocates...yet extremely, extremely Mormon. To me once you espouse those views, you're no longer Mormon no matter what you say. To be TBM you HAVE to believe in the prophets. To believe the prophets you HAVE to believe that women and gay people don't deserve equal rights. It just doesn't compute.

woodsmoke Wrote:
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> I posted about this before, I think, but I knew a
> lot of Mormons who were like that...outspoken
> feminists, equal rights activists, gay rights
> advocates...yet extremely, extremely Mormon. To me
> once you espouse those views, you're no longer
> Mormon no matter what you say. To be TBM you HAVE
> to believe in the prophets.

I guess he isn't TBM. That really trips me out. Seriously.

She is TBM, but is "supportive" of her father. It took me 21 years to go from TBM to exmo and completely supportive of her father. It takes time. Quicker for some than others. There may come a time that he can no longer reconcile loving his gay son and supporting him and being mormon.

I'm surprised he has come as far as he has. I'm actually scared for him to become exmormon. I've always been the only black sheep. I am the prodigal son and he is the "perfect" son.

Well, his perfection is rapidly unraveling and while I'm enjoying it, I'm also scared I could have a meaningful relationship with someone in my family.

It is akin to being adopted (although I have no idea what that feels like) and finding out one of the "real kids" was also adopted.

It's funny but I used to think the same way. I saw all the stuff that would lead most to believing TSCC was false, but I didn't make the connection in my head until after watching South Park's "All About Mormons" episode. I suppose you just have to find something that makes you think "Wait a minute..." before you can even begin to think the church is false once you're in that mindset.

He is definitely on the path, and I agree it is irrevocable.

I was in a similar place working to harmonize LGBT polices, the dismal "endorsement" of the Iraq war debacle by the only true and living prophet, the continued dissembling on history and doctrine, etc, etc.

I predict the scaffolds holding up the premise that mormonism is "good" will begin wobbling as your brother begins to actually live in the world he has created.

Remember, if he was like me, he is relieved to have come to the place where he can identify obvious problems and yet also explain and rationalize them away to preserve his faith. Inevitably, he will verbalize his views to others attempting to demonstrate his spiritual valor, as a way to test his premises among the faithful, and possibly to help others struggling with similar issues.

What he will discover is that his views are NOT welcome and he will find himself increasingly marginalized and accommodated. His courageous attempt to preserve faith will only be seen as a threat, and he will be required to deny the existence of any problems and he will be required to ignore the effects.

Once you recognize that mormonism requires that you endorse, sustain and promote lies and that you are required to tell them yourself to get others to do the same, you can never see things the same way again.

rodolfo Wrote:
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> Remember, if he was like me, he is relieved to
> have come to the place where he can identify
> obvious problems and yet also explain and
> rationalize them away to preserve his faith.
> Inevitably, he will verbalize his views to others
> attempting to demonstrate his spiritual valor, as
> a way to test his premises among the faithful, and
> possibly to help others struggling with similar
> issues.

This is where he is at.

> Once you recognize that mormonism requires that
> you endorse, sustain and promote lies and that you
> are required to tell them yourself to get others
> to do the same, you can never see things the same
> way again.

I wonder if he will get here. I think he has a Titanium Shelf.

I did too. Have faith Elder.

If he admits that he doesn't believe,to himself or especially out loud to others, he will prabably be in for a least a year of hell with his wife having ruined her dreams and her eternity.

Half my tbm family is supportive of gay equality because of me. I'm no longer a mormon and ofcourse my mother would prefer me to get married with a woman in the temple, but were I to marry the man of my dreams I'm sure she would cry tears of joy aswell as tears of sorrow. My siblings are more pro-choice and feminist than I am, Dad thinks the traditional gender roles are nonsense and that everyone are naturally bisexual. A few are convinced that evolution is true e.t.c.

How can they stay mormon? It just boggles my mind.

"I hold religions to the standards they claim for themselves"


And that is why apologists spring forth: so that they can do the faithful shuck and jive - a meaningless word patter designed to dance and spin around their church's inability to meet its claimed standards.


You did mention Mike Ash ... :)

I see people all around me like this in Mormondom. People have no confidence. People, like your brother, who accept that it is just and reasonable that he be consigned to some lesser place after death. I know Native American mormons who attend the Laminite ward--and they call it that! People who live with their boyfriend/girlfriends, and have no intention of getting married, but are sympathetic to the Mormon church, even though they don't attend. They don't attend precisely because they "want to sin." They want to live with their partners without marriage. They are content to label themselves sinners just because a loud, opinionated group of people labels them sinners. They have no good reason to consider themselves "bad" because they don't want to marry; yet, because a church, to whose policies they don't subscribe, labels them sinners, they feel ashamed. Because of this, they don't stand up for themselves in any way. They've become permanently meek.

MCR Wrote:
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> They've become permanently
> meek.

And they shall inherit the earth.

Interesting. No one likes having their faith shaken and stirred, much less torn up and shredded into little pieces.

People CAN think for themselves, they just need time and encouragement. I think your bro will come around eventually.

Text:
"Thanks for taking the time to talk to me on Sunday. It was refreshing to speak so openly and honestly with you. No pretense or hidden agenda. I want to live the rest of my life like that - with openness and honesty. I look forward to talking with you again soon."

I don't know what to do. I have yet to tell him that I more than just dislike LDS Inc. Oh, well. Even if we don't speak again, it is nice to know that someone in my family isn't firmly in LDS Inc.'s tyrannical clutches. Never thought it would be him. But having a child you adore be tortured by your culture and church and made to think that they are an abomination can open some people's eyes a bit.

Keep talking to him. If he wants to live his life with openness and honesty he's not going to find a lot of that in the morg collective. It really sounds like he wants to talk, and needs someone outside the bubble.

I know the feeling.

I think I will try and talk to him again. This time will be harder because we basically got everything out in the open so where do we go from here?

I think there are a few Mormons like my brother. They were willing to play the game and hide their true feelings until they reached middle age and are attempting to make Mormonism into what they always wanted it to be.

They want to be honest with their fellow humans and want to minister to others honestly and be ministered by other Mormons honestly.

It is an impossible feat so they go elsewhere with these yearnings yet never quite kill The Prophet Joseph Smith.

Its not a bad idea to introduce him to NOM websites and such I think. NOM was the next step in my journey, and I was relieved to find NOMs and relieved to know (again) that others could harmonize their faith with problems as well.

However, NOM status eventually cannot be maintained for long, mostly because as you become educated you simply can't go to church each week and listen to the same BS ignorance (or teach it to others) without some severe dissonance. Nor can you live your spiritual life in total isolation. As a NOM you really can't share your ideas or talk about your views at church without attracting considerable negative attention and it gets really difficult to just sit and say nothing week after week.

I've never really been to New Order Mormon sites. Suggestions?