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Posted by: Cali Sally ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 01:02PM

My sister goes on and on at every opportunity when we are alone to tell me how much our mother has hurt her. My mother has bailed out my sister to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars every time she gets herself into deep financial credit card debt by over spending on clothes and jewelry. My mother has educated all three of my sister's kids because sis's husband won't work. My mother has given my sister most of her furniture when she moved into assisted living and this is very, very, nice furniture. My mother bought my sister all new appliances for my sister's second home when things started falling apart and then my sister defaulted on her mortgage so all the money Mom put into sis's house now belongs to the bank and all the very, very nice furniture my sis had to sell or give away because she no longer has a home. My mother has bought my sister three brand new cars of sis's choosing over the years. My mother paid for sis's first home, entirely, and sis gave it to her husband in their divorce. Mom then put all the money down on sis's second home that sis defaulted on. Mom paid off sis's student loan when sis went back to school for a second BS (Mom also paid for the first bachelors degree). Mom has done all of this giving with no strings attached and never a word of disappointment or criticism when sis continues to over spend.

Mom is now refuses to give any more money to sis because Mom is getting older and needs the money she has left for medical expenses.

How do I respond when sis keeps telling me Mom doesn't love her unconditionally and has hurt her deeply because the money has stopped flowing? Sis even went to Mom's banker to ask if Mom gave me money to buy my condo because she thought Mom might actually be giving me money for a change. Mom gave me nothing and the banker told her so.

I'm always so dumbfound when my sister talks down Mom that I can never respond except to point out all that Mom has done for her. Sis doesn't hear a thing I say and still insists that Mom has hurt her deeply.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Giant shrug.

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Posted by: sstone ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 01:04PM

"I'm so sorry you feel hurt."

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Posted by: sstone ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 01:08PM

And I would add that there is nothing you can do to fix her attitude. So the best thing you can do for your sanity is to just see her how she is and accept that you can't change her.

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Posted by: dit ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 01:05PM

Tell your sister she needs help! If she can't see the OVER genorosity that your mother has provided she needs to get a life and move it. That would piss me right off! I wouldn't be able to continue a relationship with her if this was what her dribble was about...grow the f up!

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Posted by: Cali Sally ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 01:16PM

This is exactly what her children have told her. They have begged her to get help and she insists she has no problem.

I'm not sorry she is hurt because she has nothing to be hurt about. I'd be lying if I said it. She craves sympathy and I don't see how giving it to her will help her.

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Posted by: anonforthisone ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 03:51PM

Cali Sally Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is exactly what her children have told her.
> They have begged her to get help and she insists
> she has no problem.
>
> I'm not sorry she is hurt because she has nothing
> to be hurt about. I'd be lying if I said it. She
> craves sympathy and I don't see how giving it to
> her will help her.

does this sound like her?
"Takes advantage of others to reach own goals
Expects to be recognized as superior and special, without superior accomplishments
Expects constant attention, admiration and positive reinforcement from others
Envies others and believes others envy him/her
Is preoccupied with thoughts and fantasies of great success, enormous attractiveness, power, intelligence
Lacks the ability to empathize with the feelings or desires of others
Is arrogant in attitudes and behavior
Has expectations of special treatment that are unrealistic"

A few NPD traits I recognize right off the bat- she is entitled, irresponsible, shameless, and lacks personal insight. You might want to look into how to deal with people with personality disorders if she matches the description- all they do is screw up your life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder#Description


If this isn't the case I would tell her that she's right, mom IS mean because she never taught her how to take care of herself and now she is a grown-ass woman whining because she isn't getting anymore hand outs. She never learned this stuff because she never had to, and it would have been a lot easier if she had started teaching this valuable lesson when she was younger and better able to adapt.

Or you could tell her that you don't want to hear her complain about your mom anymore. It sounds like that is all you really want from her. Why not just say it?

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Posted by: mysid ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 05:18PM

I was thinking this sounded like NPD, but I'm just a layman. I'm glad you posted the characteristics.

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Posted by: Jonny the Smoke ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 01:24PM

I'd call her out on it, let her have it.

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Posted by: excatholic ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 01:11PM

Grow up, you ungrateful toad.

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Posted by: twojedis ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 01:16PM

I need you to stop bashing Mom. She's done a lot to help you and can't do it any longer. You mom helped your sister for waaaaay too long. How about her educated kids help her. Your sis doesn't know shit about unconditional love. She's the one showing conditional love.

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Posted by: Cali Sally ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 01:20PM

The educated kids do help her. One paid her electric bill when her power was cut off but knows it was because sis would rather buy clothes than pay utility bills. Her kids are just as disgusted with her as I am. It is so hard to feel sorry and help someone who refuses to admit they need more than financial help. She needs counseling big time but won't admit it. Her kids do a lot for her out of pity.

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Posted by: twojedis ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 01:27PM

I just read your post above about her kids telling her she needs to get help. They shouldn't give her money either. A few days or a month without power is in order.

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Posted by: They don't want me back ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 01:17PM

advantage of everyone.

How should you reply? How about truthfully?

Sister,

from my perspective you have been the beneficiary of tons of emotional and financial support, mom has given you and your family a lot more money than she has given anyone else.

Maybe it is time for you to stop blaming others for where you are in life and accept that Mom can not continue to support your lifestyle and is setting some healty boundaries with you. Your claims that she has somehow "hurt" is a manipulative tool that rationalizes your taking advantage of her.

Please take a hard look at yourself if you want to fix your problems.

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Posted by: Cali Sally ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 01:26PM

Sis's oldest daughter tried that and sis flew into a rage. Unfortunately there were a lot of family and friends around so sis lashed out at her daughter unmercifully to make it even worse. For the most part, we all try to avoid her because she isn't much fun to be around but Mom's age kind of forces us to deal with her. Mom wants her children to be around at holidays and family functions. Mom's getting too old to try and reason with about sis.

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Posted by: sstone ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 01:31PM

Is it possible your sis has a PD (personality disorder)? The most defining characteristic of such a disorder is an inability to accept feedback from other people about destructive behaviors.

I know you don't want to give your sister sympathy, and it is, of course, your call if you want to be brutally honest. But I really think, based on her past behavior, that you shouldn't expect anything you say to actually sink in.

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Posted by: They don't want me back ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 01:33PM

She is vicious person when it comes to getting what she want and not hearing a word about it, FROM ANYONE!!!

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Posted by: iris ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 01:30PM

I would tell her if she wants to talk about your mother around you--it should only be with respect to your mom's health and well-being, and that anything negative will not tolerated. If she starts in on negative stuff about your mom, walk away, hang up or, if you want the relationship, remind her of your request.

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Posted by: shortbobgirl ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 01:41PM

The real issue is your sister does not love MOM unconditionally. Her love hinges on Mom handing over dollars. I would just tell her that if she has an issue with your Mom, it is her issue and you can't help her.

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Posted by: Mia ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 01:42PM

Your sister is acting like the spoiled brat that she was raised to be.

Until everyone stops enabling her, she will continue to do what she's doing because it works for her.

You need to have a family intervention. Everyone get together and tell her NO MORE! No more money. No more gifts. NOTHING. The game is over.

She will kick and scream. She will make threats, probably including hurting herself. She may actually act out on some of this. She will be brutal. She's an addict. That's how they act when their substance is taken away.

Hopefully, with some counseling guidance she will then start to grow up and become an adult. Right now she's acting like a spoiled little 4 year old. Until the people around her change, she will keep using them until the day she dies.

Oh yes, one other thing. Addicts are professional liars. She will lie and manipulate to get her wants met. She will do this so convincingly that people will be tempted to give to her like they have in the past. Just be aware that if her mouth is moving, she's probably lying.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2013 01:45PM by Mia.

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Posted by: They don't want me back ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 02:47PM


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Posted by: Aquarious123 ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 03:40PM

I agree with calling her out and telling her about herself. The only helping hand anyone needs to depend on and expect help from is the one on the end of one's own arm.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 03:44PM

The first method that often works is ignoring them. No emails, no phone calls. Nothing.
Say nothing, do nothing.
Very often they get the point.
Sometimes they go elsewhere with their tale of woe.

It may become necessary to tell her that the gravy train has ended. She is now responsible for herself and if she can't be grateful you don't want to hear about it.

If she insists on continual whining in emails, for instance, send her links to the positive benefits of an Attitude of Gratitude!
She'll get the point!

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Posted by: anagrammy ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 03:56PM

Your expectation that your sister should be different is causing you pain.

Everything you said is factual and you keep pointing out the fact of your mother's generosity and she ignores it. Why?

Because these tactics have worked in the past--and she keeps it up because you are inadvertently are paying her off with your attention.

Forget about any idea of changing her other than recommending professional help, which you already have done. Now you must focus on managing the relationship so that you can have peace and happiness going forward.

1. Take away the reward. Next time she starts in bashing Mom, say this,

"Oh honey, I forgot to tell you -- I doing personal work on myself and I've adopted a new rule. Going forward I am not going to participate in ANY destructive processes. That includes you bashing Mom. So let's talk about something else...coffee?"

I am hoping to convey here a matter-of-fact, newsy, non-drama-provoking frame where you are making an announcement that applies to everybody, not just her. If she asks you where you got that idea, just tell her self-help books. Would she like to borrow one?

2. Stop talking about her with the siblings. She is keeping everyone's lips flapping about her because she is hoping someone will either feel sorry for her and give her money OR feel sorry for themselves for having to listen to this and give her money.

When the siblings bring her up, tell them that you love her and wish her the best and hope that if the family stops feeding her self-pity, that flame will go out. Tell them you feel that talking about her behind her back is throwing gasoline on that fire, keeping everyone centered on her. See if you can get them to buy in to the idea of attention-withdrawal. It's ok if they don't, though

3. Manage your own thoughts about her. When someone is irritating and ungrateful, it is only natural to begin to dislike them. In spite of our love or friendship for the person, we begin to think of other horrible things they have done. This is our own mind aggregating injustices to help ease the pain for future separation--the ending of the relationship.
These thoughts gather and begin to form a pile, then a hill, then a mountain because life is long and with family members we have decades of experience with them.

I learned from Buddhist psychology to short circuit this relationship-ending process by picturing the person in our head doing something generous and magnanimous. Interacting with a disabled person kindly with patience. Buying a hamburger for a homeless person. Staying up all night with a crying baby, never getting impatient. SEE that in your head and relive that instead of one of the mean things they've done to you or another family member.

Buddhism calls this sending love to "the enemy." Before you can send love in meditation to an enemy, it helps to send love to yourself first, then others, then the problem person. "May I find happiness and peace...May all beings find happiness and peace...May NAME find happiness and peace."

All beings want to be happy. You have that in common with your sister. She has found an exploitive path to happiness which is destructive to her and others. She is being forced to abandon that plan and you don't have to do anything but refuse attention to her manipulation.

You can ease your feelings of anger even as she speaks by saying to yourself "She just wants to be happy and is trying what has always worked before." Just like with a child who is whining, if you scream "Stop Whining!" you are paying off the whining. Only being silent while the child whines, then responding when she uses her words, that brings results.

With your sister, you can give more attention when she talks about positive plans for her future, like maybe getting an education so she can become independent.

Best of luck to you and please let us know how it goes. You sound like a wonderful, well-grounded person who has already managed to avoid a life of selfishness and grasping. Good on you!


Anagrammy

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 04:12PM

I agree with Ana.

Withdraw attention from your sister when she starts bad-mouthing your mom. I would just say, "I love mom, and I'm not interested in hearing it." Walk away or hang up the phone.

Give positive attention to anything your sister does to improve her circumstances or whenever she shows a mature attitude toward money.

Offer to help her learn how to budget and to manage her finances. If she says no, so be it.

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Posted by: kolobian ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 04:04PM

That banker should be fired and could go to jail..

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Posted by: dogzilla ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 04:25PM

I have a sister who is sort of like this, but she has bled my mom dry. Part of this is because of my sister's own choices. She chose not to figure out a way to educate herself, she chose to stay in the fast food industry when she could have made better money elsewhere, she chose to marry deadbeat men, she chose a crappy divorce deal both times. My sister genuinely needs financial help. I do not.

However, I'm just horrifed that any grown-ass 40-something year old woman would still be crying to mommy for handouts. REALLY? I can't even believe my sister doesn't have more pride than this.

And while it could very well be pathological, I learned a long time ago that I cannot control my sister or her choices. I cannot control my mom and her choice to keep feeding the beast. They are going to do what they are going to do. I worry that my mom will not have enough to live on or enough for her medical expenses as she gets a bit older. She's already retired. I can't understand why my sister thinks it's okay to suck dry a poor retired woman and do nothing for mom in return.

I stay the hell out of it.

Recently, my mom just sent me a fat check. A big fat check. I called her to say "I don't really need this, let me send it back or tear it up." Mom explained to me that she is worried that she will die and my sister will have sucked up all her money and I won't inherit anything. So she added up what she'd sent my sister in the last couple years and sent that amount to me. I used some of it to pay off my second mortgage and have stashed the rest of it to use to help my mom if and when it comes to that. Mom's money won't be safe with mom, but at least it'll be safe with me.

My sister and I do not discuss money, mine, hers, or mom's. I don't know if she knows that I'm aware of how much mom has sent her (she should be, mom can't keep secrets -- she tells us both everything). I don't bring it up. Being resentful won't get anyone anywhere.

I just try to sleep well at night knowing that I worked hard and earned everything I have and my sister cannot take pride in being self-sufficient. I see that as her problem and the result of her choices. My success and independence are the result of mine. We all make different choices. The only thing we can control is ourselves.

So I wouldn't reply at all. Or just say something vague, like "talking about money makes me uncomfortable, hey, how about those Atlanta Braves?"

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Posted by: sparty ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 05:04PM

I think you more or less nailed it in the first 2 paragraphs of your post. Why not just respond by saying all of those things to her?

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Posted by: Joy ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 08:19PM

I started to tell you my long, involved story about my brother, who seems to have the same personality as your sister. Yes, he was a psychopath (a form of narcissism.) Your sister's whining, complaining, evoking sympathy from others, and manipulating your mother made me want to warn you.

I will skip to the bottom line. My psychopath brother ended up stealing almost all of my parents' two estates, and he did this before they died, by becoming their Trustee and the Executor of their will. He was a TBM Mormon Royalty Golden Boy. My parents lived to be very old, and when they became weaker and more vulnerable, my brother and his family swooped in like vultures, leaving with car-fulls of plunder from the house. They even took my father's favorite paining off the wall, near his bed, while he lay dying! (The painting was supposed to go to me) He and his wife said, "You don't mind if we borrow this for our new house, do you?" We're just borrowing it." Likewise, my brother, his wife, and his children went through all my mother's jewelry (including a 35,000 diamond from Ireland), and her other valuables, as well. I and lived 500 miles away, on the coast.

My brother got Power of Attorney, also, and could write checks as he wished, with no one to govern him. He and put all my parents' finances onto his computer. My parents were not computer savvy. Anyway, my other siblings and I ended up with almost nothing, and my brother became a millionaire. He was already in huge debt, his wife was a shop-aholic, and his children had been dependent on my parents, so the money did not last them very long. They liked to travel to Europe, go on cruises, eat steak and lobster, etc. The children still do. My parents put #1 son through BYU, and he lied to them, saying he graduated. Later we found out that for those years, he never took classes, but used my parents tuition, housing, and food money to loaf around Provo, go on expensive road trips and dates, and show off. Oh, this is just the tip of the iceberg. He embezzled money from the family business. A wealthy old cousin became ill, and my siblings and I had been raised with more as brothers and sisters, than cousins. I'll skip the details, but he did the same thing to our cousin as his father had done to our parents. Being unemployed, and having time on his hands, he moved into the elderly cousin's house, when our cousin was put into a Hospice. Two weeks before our cousin died, #1 Son nephew (one of 30 second-cousins to our cousin) had our cousin write a new Will, leaving everything to himself, and a few thousand to my siblings and me. We sued him, but we only retrieved half of it back.

There are warnings, concerning your sister. She has a sense of entitlement, and could steal from your mother, and you, having no guilt at all.

You will be pushed into the role of your mother's protector, and you must rise to the occasion. If you have siblings, they must help her, too. An old person on a fixed income has desperate need of money, and care. Please, please, make sure her Will is airtight, and her trust, if she has one. Hire a good attorney--I believe attorneys are as necessary as doctors--and make sure the executor is a person, or professional institution you can trust.

Narcissist, psychopaths, and sociopaths run in families. Experts seem to believe it is genetic, but in my experience, it is learned. You need to keep an eye on your sister's children.

Beware of the chronically unemployed. My parents put my brother through an Ivy League university, but he didn't like the jobs he was in and out of, so they paid for his MBA at an expensive private university. He failed one job interview after another, and it was always the fault of the interviewer, or racism (if a dark-skinned person was hired instead) or nervousness, or the job was beneath him, etc. My parents bought my brother a house, and bailed them out of credit card dept, paid off three mortgages, and when my brother lost the house, my parents bought him a new house out in the dust-bowl. My parents completely supported my brother's children, from birth, through braces on their teeth, surgeries, BYU educations (none of them graduated.) Be prepared to assume support of your sister's children!

You will be protecting your sister's children, too, from their mother, and perhaps from each other. My brother's #1 Son does not spend money on his children or their education. He does not help his sisters and their litters of children. He and his wife are using my cousin's money to travel around the world, stay at expensive hotels, eat like gluttons. Unfortunately, when the money runs out, my siblings and I will probably not help that family. We are that angry.

Sorry for the rant, but after the years and generations of having this group of narcissists steal from us, our love has gone cold. We always tried to help these unfortunate family members through their failures and sorrows, because we were manipulated by them, too. Notice how much time and attention and planning and family discussions are centered on that one person--your sister. With this last fraud with our dear cousin, the sorrow of his unexpected illness and death, coming on the heels embezzlement from a family business--our feelings are cold as ice toward #1 Son. Putting him out of my life completely has been my only cure. We have our own children and grandchildren to consider, who need our attention and our money. Moreover, my siblings and I don't want our children to watch someone get away with stealing and lying and cheating. That is why we have sued, even though we didn't expect to win any money. It was for the principle. My children always disliked #1 Son, because he always told lies, and has a very obnoxious, fast-talking, overbearing presence. I'm glad, now, that I didn't push my children into a relationship with someone they instinctively disliked. It was the same for the Mormon church. Actually, my children were the ones who led me out of TSCC.

Good luck. You will know what to do, when you put yourself, your children and husband, and your mother--first. I hope you can avoid some of hurt, but I think you will be hurt more in the long run, unless you act now. (((hugs)))

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Posted by: Mia ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 08:52PM

I have a brother that I believe is in the process of doing this. Him and his new wife moved in the upstairs of my parents house. My parents live in the basement.

I'm pretty sure he has power of attorney. He's been robbing them for years.

I'm the black sheep in the family. No way am I going to get involved in that mess. They all made their choices, now they are going to be living with those choices. LIterally.

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Posted by: Mormon Observer ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 09:37PM

Two words: Professional Victim

She has no conscience. If you help her, you hurt her because she doesn’t have to deal with her faults.

Change the subject. Be the most boring person for her to talk with because you’ll stick to two subjects; the weather and your health.

You won’t talk about her or Mom so you’re boring.

“Mom doesn’t love me” Well you will have to talk to Mom about that.

“I have nothing more to add.”

Is a good statement. Make your statement about her behavior and Mom’s help and say I have nothing to add.

You can also tell her with great enthusiasm: I’m so excited for you! You’re entering into a new phase of life for you! You’re going to learn how to take care of yourself without hand outs! This is so neat! You’ll get to learn and become so much stronger and capable! How wonderful! You’ll love being able to take care of yourself and not have to whine and beg others for your living expenses! I’m looking forward to your growth!

Then tell her you’re busy and have to go now, but when she calls back you want to hear all about her job search…..be that voice of reason and enthusiasm that she doesn’t want to hear….and she’ll find an audience somewhere else..

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Posted by: Cali Sally ( )
Date: July 11, 2013 10:51PM

Thanks everyone! Very good insights and advice. You have given me some great replies as well as resources for study.

Just as a bit of added info. My father (the one who always told us that TSCC was a crock of lies) also saw that my sister was a disaster in the making. He told me when I was in high school that I'd have to be the one to take care of the inheritance as my sister would blow through it immediately. He also told my mother to stop bailing my sister out with money all the time but Mom could never bare to see sis in financial pain. Only problem was Dad died young and did not get his trust written the way he intended. I'm still not sure how that happened but I'm working with my mother so that her trust is written correctly. We are working on not letting sis have control over what she inherits. She will have small amounts given out incrementally. But sis's high living could actually be her early demise. Even she has said that she's not sure she will out live Mom. Mom is getting old but takes pretty good care of herself. We will see.

Thanks again everyone. You're all the best.

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