My memory isn't the greatest and when City Creek Mall was in it's early developmental stages, I had blinders on. Now my friend is questioning and I need a few facts. I know about the statement that the funding didn't come from tithing funds, but from the real estate investment arm of the corporation.

The thing that I do not remember is how TSCC purchased the land, specifically Main Street. Also, Crossroads Mall, at what point did that become church property and were the land purchases included in the 1.5 billion they claim they spent?

The church always owned the property of the Crossroads mall. That's an easy one. They also owned the ZCMI center. They fused the two areas for the downtown revitalization where they built the City Creek mall. They had the city give them an easement where they needed to create space for the new mall and new temple parking. Lest ye forget the church owns more downtown real estate than anyone. Paving the way for the new mall was not hard for them.

The church's investment and development companies threw up the nearly 5 billion to fund all the construction and development of the new mall. Did the money come from the tithing earnings budget? No they say. It still came from liquid assets that the church owned stemming from its massive real estate and other earnings. I would add that over time ALL the church's money came from tithing earnings, like my grandparents meager tithing contributions that helped finance the real estate projects years ago. I don't think there's evil in the mall project, but your win with your questioning TBM friend can come in asking critical questions about the church's real purpose on earth (To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man...")

Why would the church build a 5B mall? The church financed the whole thing. There were no other large scale commercial mall projects under construction in America while the mall was being built.

The mall is not open on Sunday, but they allow the selling of liquor and give space to high end luxury retailers. The church applies some rules but not others to the mall tenants.

With everything else happening in the national and global economy why did the church choose a massive mall project? Was the mall a giant PR stunt to beautify downtown SLC or a giant long term investment? Can't you think of better uses of 5B dollars to attract new members to the church? Even a project like Oprahs school for impoverished African girls would have been nice.

What did Tommy Monson say as he cut the ribbon for the mall? ("Let's go shopping!")

Who are the stakeholders or those who deserve to yield dividends of the mall project? Jesus? (No.) The pie baking widows of the church? (No.) The over worked lay member and leader? (No.)

Why then would the church divert so much money to a commercial activity? Because they prayed about it and The Lord said "yes!" ? If that was the case I wonder how many times The Lord said "No" to Hinckley and crew (who made the decision) until he finally let them build it. They tired our The Lord from their supplication and begging, just like joe did when he begged The Lord to give the 116 pages to Harris.

The facts aren't all that scandalous. The real scam is found in asking yourself why in the hell would gods one true church use so many resources to build the mall. (Easy answer is cuz the church is born from a hoax and is nothing more than a massive tax free business enterprise.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2013 06:31PM by Yaqoob.

Send your friend here first.
https://www.mercyships.org/about-mercy-ships/the-situation/

Then ask them why the church built a mall when the mall funds could have bought and paid for six ships and deployed them worldwide with volunteers who would have lined up to pay for and support their continued operation?

"What would Christ have done with that money?" That is the only question.

The leaders inspiration is not other’s needs. It is greed and the protection of the generational fraud for the LDS elite.

(Sorry, meant to post at the bottom. Didn't mean to pre-empt anyone)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2013 04:06PM by AmIDarkNow?.

Yaqoob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I would add that
> over time ALL the church's money came from tithing
> earnings, like my grandparents meager tithing
> contributions that helped finance the real estate
> projects years ago.

NO NO NO!

LOTS OF MORMONS HAVE GIVEN DONATIONS OTHER THAN TITHING!!!
Lots have put tscc in their wills, etc, irrespective of tithing!

But of course, $ is fungible; money given for 'One Purpose' can easily be applied to another, vice versa.

NO NO NO!

LOTS OF MORMONS HAVE GIVEN DONATIONS OTHER THAN TITHING!!!
Lots have put tscc in their wills, etc, irrespective of tithing!

But of course, $ is fungible; money given for 'One Purpose' can easily be applied to another, vice versa.

Thank you for the answers. I actually sent her to FAIR. Their explanation is better than anything I could have said.
The lords tithing is best used when invested. When you give to the poor, the money is gone.

They did not really say that?!?!

say what? "Let's go shopping"

Monson not only said it, but LDS Inc's KSL media arm broadcast it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ-tvSWEcpw

but please don't over look *Media Genius* Gordon BS Hinckley's role in this. MORmONS consider themselves to be so avante guard
but they are really behind the times, Sam Kinison was busting the Mall building TV Evangelists 20 years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDhAIjF0wQI

i need to see a link for that

Yes. That link will get shared far and wide. By me.

...here's the link. It says it in so many words, with the usual LDS business-model lingo..........


http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_church_integrity/City_Creek_Center_Mall_in_Salt_Lake_City

They sure the hell did.

I was discussing the City Creek mall at dinner with some SLC local friends and LDS or not the feeling was unanimously that it was sterile and un-inviting. Predictions about the ultimate failure of the mall after all the stores lose their FREE rent in 5 years was also unanimous. The sentiment seemed to conclude that mormons have been taught NOT to shop retail so Nordstrom will leave because no mormons will shop there unless it is a BIG sale. The little security guards are just creepy. They also said that the APPLE store is OPEN on Sunday!! Fer shame and all that....money changers in the temple and all that. Doesn't matter to me because I won't be shopping there EVER and the one time we ventured to the Cheesecake Factory some self-important penis-hood holder decided to rearrange the queue according some divine intervention that he apparently felt entitled to. No Thanks, not interested in participating in that BS!

People, I wouldn't steer you wrong. My friend who is really a NOM, but doesn't know it was as apalled as I knew she would be. She's fairly liberal and I don't think that most Mormons have had the issue of investing tithing dollars spelled out for them. I'm guessing that most mormons think that their tithing goes to pay for the temples, the ward houses, the institues and seminaries, the Universities, The MTCs and mission homes and printed materials for use in church and the mission field and maybe a few other things. The idea that there is money left over that is invested is not common knowledge. People just hand over that 10% and don't think much about it.

The subject came up because my friend has been a Gateway shopper since it opened. She has been working on a second home in central Utah and hasn't been in Salt Lake all spring and summer. She went to Gateway today and was sad to see so much of it vacant. Somebody at Gateway told her about the Apple store getting a free lease at City Creek and she just couldn't believe how unfair that was. She had heard that the church didn't use tithing money and wanted to know the "official story". Have you ever tried to tell anyone the "official story" about anything that is a problem for TSCC? They never explain themselves, so there is no "official story". That is why I sent her to FAIR and told her that was about as "official" as she would find.

FAIR is a great place to send anyone who is already having some doubts, because they run across a bunch of issues that FAIR is dealing with that they didn't even know existed.

I sent her to FAIR to find out about the mall and she called back wanting to know if I knew anything about Polyandry. She'd never heard the word before. But it's right there on the front page of FAIR.

With any luck FAIR will explain my friend right out of the church.

It was built to keep the gays and mexicans at bay.

My question is how did the church purchase/establish its "real estate arm" in the first place?

I don't see any way around it eventually being derived from tithing funds still, but I don't know the details.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2013 11:24PM by likeaboss8821.

The church has always been lavished with donations and gifts besides tithing. Everything from cash, real estate, goods, products, stocks, portfolios, you name it they have received it. They have lawyers in place to assist families in estate gifting to the the church. Hell, my father's estate has given the church $3 MILLION+ CASH so far outside of the tithing he paid for years, and the figure keeps climbing. I seriously doubt he is the only one to make such a gift to the church.

When the church says that no tithing funds were used for City Creek, I don't doubt them one bit. And so far I haven't seen anyone produce anything that states otherwise. Sure there is always the weak argument that "everything the church has at one time came from tithing funds", but I don't buy that either. I have seen first-hand loads of cash handed over to the church outside of tithing. $5 billion to pay for a mall?? I'm fairly confident the church EASILY had that without tapping the tithing fund or any investments or funds derived from tithing. Easily.

Fine, but that isn't the point - whether or not tithing funds were used. The point is that the LDS church HAD billions of extra dollars and they chose to use it to build a mall. Not to help the poor, not to support the arts in Salt Lake City, not to pay for janitors, not to support the missionaries and take some of the burden off over-stressed parents, not to build more canneries to feed the poor, not to build homeless shelters, not to help fund scholarships for worthy Mormon kids at BYU even. They put moneychangers across from the temple to make money off tourists who come to Salt Lake to see "God's" temple. They pulled the exact same stunt that was described in the New Testament as pissing off Jesus to the point he lost his temper and went bat-crap crazy with a whip.

That's what they think of their Savior! And no matter where they got the money, THAT is how they chose to spend it.

CA girl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fine, but that isn't the point - whether or not
> tithing funds were used.how they
> chose to spend it.

Ummmmm...actually that WAS the point I was addressing in the post above mine. Aside from that, I couldn't agree more with what you wrote.

What is the difference between tithes and offerings. Nim sure your dad didn't expect his offering money to be financing a mall.

I'm quite sure my father would care less about where ANY money he gave the church went. That is the mindset of nearly all members who give to the church. It is all about "building up the kingdom" whether it be through humanitarian efforts, assisting the poor, constructing new buildings and temples, or building a mall. His "blessings" come from his gift, not where that gift is spent.

Members can rationalize anything. It's their unwritten 14th Article of Faith - "We believe in justification through rationalization."

Why do you think they won't open the books? Some of that tithing money is going to pay for the best accountants and tax attorneys money can buy. The money used for City Creek Mall may be profit from tithing money previously invested, which would technically mean it was not actually tithing money. I think that is like obeying the letter of the law and ignoring the spirit of the law.

I love the part where it says if you give money to the poor the money will be gone. That would be a problem if there wasn't a steady stream of money coming in, but since there is no term on the command to pay your tithing debt, people just keep paying and paying and paying.

Not to derail the thread, but I have been trying to nail down the exact cost of the mall, and how much was paid by TSCC.

I know TSCC won't disclose exact figures, but there are differing stories on it. I'm inclined to think that if FAIR reports TSCC spent 1.5 billion and the 5 billion figure was the entire downtown renovation, they probably spent a lot more.

Does anyone have the numbers (or close estimates)?

They were in half a billion just to acquire the buildings that they knocked down and another half a billion just to knock those buildings down. Thats a billion dollars just to get to vacant pad before actual construction ever starts.

A certain RFM poster said it would be 5 Billion $ clear back in 2009. He was mocked. Then LDS Inc got to bragging about all they were doing to help out down town Salt Lake City, and then LDS INC. Presiding Bishop Burton let it fly that the mall cost was 5 BILLION $. Burton was also released soon after that.

The best / worst for City Creek center is yet to come.

How is this not scandalous?

http://www.acluutah.org/mainstreetplaza.htm

Many people (myself included) view the church's purchase of a public city street as a clear breach of the separation of church and state.

1) why does Jesus allow the church to have a for-profit corporate arm anyway?
2) why did Jesus prefer so much money was invested in a mall rather than for more humanitarian aid?
3) was Pres Hinckley surprised when Jesus commanded him to use the money in this manner?
4) is Jesus aware that all the 'investment money' originated with the widow's mite tithes and sacrifices of previous members?
5) has Jesus changed his priorities since the New Testsment times? If so, why?

As you can see - I like to rephrase everything back to Jesus as it really helps crank up the cog dis levels of TBMs.

Likes this.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2013 12:34PM by iflewover.

Gordon Hinckley actually hired a Jewish PR Firm, the same one that was recruited to help salvage Exxon oil's reputation after the Exxon Valdeez Oil spill.

"MORmONS hiring Jews to help spread the (Christian) word?"
Mike Wallace CBS 60 Minutes

It makes sense...... to MORmONS !



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Kkema-oqtM

I think this mall incident makes the case as to why LDS, Inc. needs to become financially transparent.

It may be a prudent thing for an organization to save some of its donated funds for unexpected expenses, or a downturn in donations. It would also be smart to invest some of those funds to build the savings and retain value against inflation. But--the donors deserve to know how the organization makes those choices.

The financial relationship of the LDS Church and its members reveals a deeper truth. The LDS Church does not treat its rank and file members as partners whose consent is needed to sustain the organization. No the members are subjects, who must obey their Lords--or there will be consequences.

Most corporations are required to answer to their stockholders. TSCC is a corporation that not only doesn't answer, they don't allow the stockholders to question.

I think TSCC has gone far beyond saving for unexpected expenses, and I would question if a shopping mall is a wise investment.

I think the reference to the Vatican is right on. TSCC is building a little city within a city. I don't think the mall is an inclusive way to eradicate urban blight. It's more of a way to keep blight at bay.

What would Jesus buy?

I'm thinkin' he might invest in some low income housing, or maybe a free clinic or two, or even fund some cancer research. I know that there might not be much return on investment, but the mall is not expected to make a return on investment for several years.

Are you printing bumper stickers? Maybe with a SLC skyline on them.

Orwell, 1984, Ministry of Plenty (Wiki):

"The Ministry of Plenty is in control of Oceania's planned economy... This is the central theme of Oceania's idea that a poor, weak populace is easier to rule over than a wealthy, powerful populace. Telescreens often make reports on how Big Brother has been able to increase economic production, even when production has actually gone down (see Ministry of Truth).
The Ministry hands out statistics which are "nonsense". When Winston is adjusting some Ministry of Plenty's figures, he explains this:
But actually, he thought as he readjusted the Ministry of Plenty's figures, it was not even forgery. It was merely the substitution of one piece of nonsense for another. Most of the material that you were dealing with had no connection with anything in the real world, not even the kind of connection that is contained in a direct lie. Statistics were just as much a fantasy in their original version as in their rectified version. A great deal of time you were expected to make them up out of your head.
Like the other ministries, the Ministry of Plenty seems to be entirely misnamed, since it is, in fact, responsible for maintaining a state of perpetual poverty, scarcity and financial shortages. However, the name is also apt, because, along with the Ministry of Truth, the Ministry of Plenty's other purpose is to convince the populace that they are living in a state of perpetual prosperity. Orwell made a similar reference to the Ministry of Plenty in his allegorical work Animal Farm when in the midst of a blight upon the farm, Napoleon the pig orders the silo to be filled with sand, then to place a thin sprinkling of grain on top, which fools human visitors into being dazzled about Napoleon's boasting of the farm's superior economy."