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Posted by: perceptual ( )
Date: July 14, 2013 02:01PM

I haven't been to church in 10 years, haven't practiced in 20, and stopped believing 8 years ago. However, I'm just now learning a lot of the horrors of the church leaders. For instance:

The Book of Mormon teaches that sexual sins are "most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost" (Alma 39:5).

Then Heber J. Grant said there "is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity"

I am blown away. The church thinks the only thing worse than losing your chastity is murdering someone or disbelieving in the Holy Ghost. I just cannot believe how atrocious some of their teachings are. Do Mormons really believe that it's better to die than fool around before marriage?

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Posted by: Becca ( )
Date: July 14, 2013 02:03PM

I'm quite sure that they won't admit to that anymore nowadays... They are trying to go mainstream..

But yes, that is what they believed.
I was taught that if I was ever raped, I'd better die fighting..

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Posted by: anagrammy ( )
Date: July 14, 2013 02:28PM

How these extreme statements are nullified in real life is truly amazing as well.

You go to the bishops office to get a Temple Recommend because you and boyfriend are now engaged. You admit you have not been chaste. He wants details. You don't give a blow-by-blow (!) but just tell him you didn't go all the way.

You get a TR.

You go to the bishops office exactly as above but you are not engaged. You are a Dreaded Single Adult with no plans to change your status.

You don't get a TR and he says "Nothing impure can enter God's Holy Temple."

You have your TR. You go to the bishops office because you are getting married next week in the Temple and you and your boyfriend slipped (yes, you are stupid) and had sex.

You lose your TR and he says he will arrange a civil ceremony for you instead in his living room or at the ward, and you can get sealed in a year.

Your boyfriend is furious, your relatives already have their flights, you lose thousands in deposits on venues and catering, the cake! and the flowers! Your mother has not stopped crying since you told her.

You go back in and tell the bishop you lied just to see what would happen. You tell him you were baited by apostates and had been drinking at the time you came in.

You are excommunicated. You start screaming and can't stop crying and the bishop calls the cops. They 5150 you and your mother is called by the psychiatrist. She's fine with that. Now she has a socially acceptable explanation.

In Mormonism, there are worse things than losing your chastity.


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Posted by: procrusteanchurch ( )
Date: July 14, 2013 02:29PM

After being kidnapped, Elizabeth Smart wouldn't cry out for help because she felt like a chewed up piece of gum. As if being kidnapped and assaulted wasn't bad enough, she was tormented by guilt because she didn't feel she was chaste. Although she refers to a quote by a school teacher, I'm pretty sure the concept came from tscc and that teacher was probably a tbm. It really bothers me that the teachings of tscc make someone a victim twice instead of providing comfort in such a terrible situation.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2013 02:29PM by procrusteanchurch.

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Posted by: Fluhist ( )
Date: July 14, 2013 09:34PM

As a teenager tbm I had this little rhym in my little book of verses.

The girl that I am,
Will not allow the woman I hope to be,
To rob the child I hope to have,
Of the birthright of Chastity.

Yup I lived it, but my husband didn't, he cheated like hell, but my children still came along in good health - for which I am thankful, but what on earth is the gift of chastity? Would my children have been any different if I hadn't been 'chaste'.

Also the whole idea was fine for someone like me, but what about someone who had not lived as I did? What a guilt trip!! Denying your children something (even if you aren't sure just what it is you are denying them).

What RUBBISH!!!!

I also think that the statement made many years ago by a general authority about 'dying rather than giving up your chastity' has caused more rape victims untold pain than can be measured. It made it sound as if you should die rather than 'allow' yourself to be raped. Who ''allows' rape? What makes it rape is the forcing of the act!!! I have had a lot of anger over all that stuff!!

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Posted by: gentlestrength ( )
Date: July 14, 2013 09:45PM

This is where someone can justify the claim that Mormonism is evil.

This doctrine flat out has resulted in destroyed lives. Death and self-hate for acting on sexual nature. Not all appetites should be indulged of course, but most are harmless, a few require mutual consent, and very few should not be indulged.

Apart from that, Mormons messing with an adolescent developing into adults is tragic and has no place in a society that values healthy adults.

Mormonism is a parasite on the United States, best squish it, than learn to live with it.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 12:46AM

That plus drowning all the kids back in Noah's day. The guy iis definitely not ready for prime time.

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Posted by: dogzilla ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 09:30AM

Spencer W. Kimball said it too, and IIRC, it's in The Miracle of Forgiveness (AKA "It's a Miracle if You're Forgiven").

I remember hearing that all throughout the 80s, in YW, in Sunday School, in Seminary, General Conference, Stake Conference, Sacrament meeting. I heard it everywhere, frequently.

So, when I was abused, I understood why my parents (and every adult who knew about it) treated me like I was a worthless piece of shit. Because to mormons, any woman who is not a virgin prior to marriage is a worthless piece of shit. Women are only worth their reproductive capacity and men need to be guaranteed that any little mormons they make are their own.

Note: Men generally get a pass on this "protect your virtue at the expense of your life," but women do not.

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Posted by: vh65 ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 02:08PM

I sincerely hope there was someone in your life who told you that Kimball quote was crap! I found it disturbing hearing it constantly repeated as a teen, but after abuse it would have been devastating. Howe could an inspired leader not realize the unnecessary pain it would cause? And who would really prefer their loved one to die? That comment was pure evil!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2013 02:09PM by vh65.

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Posted by: dogzilla ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 03:45PM

Nope. I was told that I was a disgusting whore who threw myself at men and that I needed to repent.

It wasn't until I took a women's studies class in college -- 4 or 5 years later -- that I learned what had actually happened to me is called "rape" pretty much by any definition. That word was never used in our house.

Nobody ever even said to me "That wasn't your fault" until I was well into my 30s and finally started talking about it all.

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Posted by: gentlestrength ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 02:14PM

dogzilla Wrote:
> Note: Men generally get a pass on this "protect
> your virtue at the expense of your life," but
> women do not.

Care to expand?

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Posted by: dogzilla ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 03:48PM

In my experience, nobody cares if a man isn't a virgin prior to marriage. Oh, he might not be able to marry in the temple or go on a mission, but nobody tells him to go off himself because he isn't a pure, pristine virgin.

Because men are valued for what they do, i.e., how well they provide. Women are valued for how many children they pump out. Mormon men don't want their women to have anything to compare to and they don't want to have to worry about the paternity of their children.

I guess I'm basing my comments on what I heard in YW the entire time: that men are weak, helpless creatures who are incapable of controlling themselves. So if sex happens before marriage, it's our fault for dressing like walking porn and being temptresses. Even if you're raped, you're told it's your fault, you must have asked for it somehow.

I don't recall ever hearing about any man who was held down and raped until he fought to the death. But I could be wrong. You let me know if you know about some cases like that, okay?

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Posted by: gentlestrength ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 03:57PM

I have a friend who is homosexual and raised Mormon, he was treated very badly by Mormons, especially church leaders and Evergreen.

Little boys are abused, both physically and sexually. Mostly by men, but women too.

If you think it is a woman issue, I won't try and persuade you differently. I think it is best to seek allies regardless of gender on this matter.

Women and girls have definitely been treated badly in Mormonism. There are also a lot of Mormon women who neglect, abuse and deceive their sons as well as manipulate them as only a mom can do. Mormon women tell their children they know the Mormon church is true. What do we think of mothers that tell there children to play in traffic, that it makes them proud and happy?

I was just hoping you would expand on how

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Posted by: WinksWinks ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 04:15PM

I see this angle has really exposed some raw experiences you have had and heard of, but I think what dogzilla was getting at is the fact that the "fight to the death" lesson is taught to the YW.

Has it ever been taught to the young men? Any boys get the licked cupcake recipe?
See, virginity is valued as a commodity, a THING that women possess that can be "taken away", but boys are not held to this same standard, partly because there is no marker on men that when "missing" can be blamed on a lack of chastity. The hymen is largely why men get a pass in this area.

Sexism affects both men and women in the church, and in different areas there is a greater impact for one or the other. Men receive far worse grilling about masturbation, for instance(as well as your own examples).

But are you really trying to negate dogzilla's point all together? I see that you brought a whole lot of different variations on the harm of oppression and the cult to the topic, but surely you can concede that in this one particular sexist angle, her point is a valid one?

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Posted by: forbiddencokedrinker ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 12:17PM

Death before dishonor is really only good advice if you are fighting off an invasion from cannibalistic barbarians. Not so much if you are talking about getting frisky with a date.

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Posted by: rationalguy ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 04:03PM

And remember; The chastity thing is administered differently for men. Isn't it true that a male who admits having sex is very likely to be treated less severely?

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Posted by: darkprincess ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 04:18PM

It is hard to even open this thread. As a teenager I was date raped. I felt so unclean I "confessed" to the bishop. He considered marriage as a possible option, to the person who raped me, we were both in high school.
Instead I was disfellowshipped and told to read the miracle of forgiveness. My mothers response was to tell me that she knows the church is true and the bishop is inspired.
All I wanted was to die.
Sometimes I hate them all and anyone who makes excuses for them.

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Posted by: truthseeker ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 11:17PM

I know someone (not LDS) who was raped as a young woman in the 70's and pressured by her parents into marrying her rapist. They stayed married for about 10 years until she finally had the strength and resources to leave.

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Posted by: exbishfromportland ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 04:22PM

I saw a quote a few months ago where toward the end of his life Kimball told either his son or grandson that maybe some of things in The Miracle of Forgiveness were sort of harsh and he regretted saying them. Sorry, can't recall more about the quote, but I remember reading it and thinking, "well then, why not say something over the pulpit about it?"

This chastity argument is wrong on so many levels. Someone should have called up Kimball and said, "Hey president, my daughter got raped yesterday and I asked her how hard she resisted. She said not much, he had a knife. After she finished her story I shot her. Just wanted to let you know."

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Posted by: lucky ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 04:35PM

and from this very same vein of insane MORmONISM extremism comes the MORmON doctrine of Married couples can commit adultery with each other. ( STUPID ASS MORmONS!) just past the three minute mark.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2013 04:36PM by lucky.

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Posted by: runningyogi ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 04:47PM

Sorry but why would God create something so wonderful and yet send you to hell for doing it? Like anything else it can be good or bad for your mental state depending on how you use it or abuse it. But with your Lover, future partner, or main attraction......really?! Sexual Energy to me is God energy and can bring self empowerment and joy. This terrifies religions who want to control and consume you. So let's make it bad/bad. I find it so interesting that Mormondum's very own Prophet showed us how important living a "Chaste." life is with Polygamy, and 14 year old girls in secrecy. I like to think that I have become a better human being and more responsible for my actions since I have rid myself of such guilt and non-sense. We are that we might have Joy right?

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Posted by: Samson ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 07:24PM

My thoughts entirely!

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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 05:47PM

Seminary class in High School. We had a very charismatic teacher that was normally a pretty funny guy. We were in the year learning about "The Book of Mormon."

We got to the parts about chastity and sins almost as bad as murder bullshit. So, it was time to have the big "Morality lesson."

The teacher incorporates the quotes about fighting to protect your chastity and the teacher talks about fighting of rapists - so that you can be held "blameless."

This girl raises her hand, and in an incredibly heartbroken voice says, "Sometimes there's nothing you can do."

The air was instantly sucked out of the entire class.

The church's teachings on human sexuality are naive and misguided in the least and dangerously destructive at their worst.

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Posted by: WinksWinks ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 06:44PM

"The church's teachings on human sexuality are naive and misguided in the least and dangerously destructive at their worst."

Some of the most damaging teachings given by the church are almost transparently obviously written as a thought exercise with little to zero actual application in the real world. It's like some rich white dude is sitting in his office thinking about his sheltered idyllic childhood and a news headline about rape comes on and his stunted little mind spits out this gem, "T'would be better if it never happened at all, little whore probably didn't even fight. Now how can I turn that into a lesson for Sundee School?"

"Ah, yes! 'Fight harder or we'll know you're a slut!'. Well, that's not very PC these days, let's see how I can tone that down. I must speak to the women in language they understand, hmm... Cupcakes, yes. Flowers, brownies, yes, I can present this in a myriad of ways!"

And never once did it cross his mind that he should be teaching the boys to respect women as human.

Because he doesn't.

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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 06:48PM

And prophets are too fucking important to listen to anyone else other than the voices in their head they've named "god."

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Posted by: Infinite Dreams ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 07:53PM

My seminary teacher may have acted like a total Nazi, but we never got that lesson, because his oldest daughter was brutally raped when she was in high school many years before. So our morality lessons only had to do with legit consensual sex.

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Posted by: drilldoc ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 06:37PM

So misguided. So unscriptural. So, where does Christ's atonement fit in here?

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Posted by: bentleye ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 07:08PM

The thing about sexual "sins" being almost as bad as murder, and chastity being worth more than life are evidences of a false doctrine. Even if you believe that sex is sinful and bad, how in the world can you equate it with the ultimate worst of human crimes. It is totally nonsensical. Death and Murder deprive a human being of life, and deprive a family and community of a member. Consensual sex and masturbation do not inherently cause any harm at all. This is a most problematic thing.

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Posted by: Fluhist ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 07:47PM

Dogzilla, I am SO sorry for what happened to you, and for the GHASTLY response of your so called family and church. You have done SO well to emerge from it as well as you obviously have. I am with you every step of the way!!

Darkprincess, I am SO glad you didn't die. I am SO sorry for what happened to you. You are a very valuable and brave person for having the courage to open the thread, read it, and tell your story. I am VERY proud of you, and all my best goes to you!

To all of you who see the TERRIBLE evil of this teaching, THANKYOU!!!

Beleive me I know what it is to feel dirty and traumatised by an attack, and to know that others see it for what it is, a horrible event that scars your life, NOT a sin, is a great thing to me!

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Posted by: presleynfactsrock ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 09:37PM

I also know what it is to feel dirty and traumatised by an attack. My experience played out where I was not believed one tiny bit that something like what I described had occurred. This happened in my middle school years and ended any trust I with my mother, it was the final straw in a rocky relationship.

I also relate my sorrow to those who have had to suffer any kind off sexual abuse, and I so agree that the church's outlook on this is black, dark and evil.

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Posted by: Stray Mutt ( )
Date: July 15, 2013 10:56PM

What is of actual value is not creating an unwanted pregnancy or catching a disease, or not engaging in things you're not mentally and emotionally prepared for, or not being coerced into something you don't want to do. But chastity for the sake of chastity? Highly overrated.

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Posted by: presleynfactsrock ( )
Date: July 16, 2013 12:30AM

+1----well said

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