Should I do them? I have a really close friend who's having issues with the church but they're still defensive of it when I try to bring up things I see as problems (you know, the kind that could either leave or not but it's hard to say) but they thought maybe we could get missionary lessons together to help us both "understand".

They also would feel more comfortable with me there and what they don't realise is that missionaries know so little about the church. As we all know, missionaries are really in no way prepared to teach about a false church in a convincing way, other than to people who know nothing about it.

So I have decided that I could perhaps use this as my chance to bring out my problems with the church to this friend by talking about them with the missionaries.

What do you guys think? Does this sound like a good idea? I also want to brush up on my research if I'm going to do this so I also want to know what you guys think are the most difficult questions to answer? (And I want any other problems you guys can think of too if you want to list them) I've got a list down of my own already, but it's nice to hear what other people have to say.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2013 02:31AM by nickson.

I appreciate your loyalty to your friend, but participating is more likely to cause confusion for you, or more grievious problems if you are perceived as an 'agent provacateur" tryiing to win your friend away from the church - these people can be ruthless, as we have seen on this board. Why not introduce your friend instead to a spiritual gathering of a differnt type that is upbeat, postive, and life-affirming? Even something completely different, such as a Rastafarian ( lol, or pastafarian) gathering, a hari krishna colour celebration, or perhaps a trip to a pow wow or Oneness gathering? something that would broaden your friend's horizons and perspectives, affirm your support for him, and introduce new people and ideas into the mix, without putting you in a compromised or hazardous position.? Just some thoughts.

Ooh haha don't worry about me getting confused. Trust me, I know way too much about the church to get confused. I know both sides of the argument very well and I would definitely be prepared to say what I would need to say. What you said about being perceived as someone who is trying to be antagonistic or trying to disturb the peace is what I'm worried about.

That's why I asked for a second opinion.

I can tell you know your way around the topic ! :) I think you can probably be extraordinally effective in helping your friend and have been already. As we agree, it's being perceived as a trouble maker that concerns me, so maybe somebody else has got some alternative middle of the road suggestions. :)be careful! :)

Well thank you very much :)

Maybe someone needs to start a Missionary Deprogramming push, sort of like what they used to do in the 70s to deprogram the flower children who had joined the Children of God , Moonies, etc. Somebody could write up the text. Those who were part of the work could wear black shirts and white ties or ( sister un missionaries) white skirts. White tennis shoes, better for walking in. The teams could be called " the UnMissionaries." I think I should shut up and go to bed as I am now just being goofy lol
best wishes!

I don't want to give advice, but I've noticed your posts and you seem clever. I don't think it will overwhelm you and perhaps be a good life experience.

The main thing I would stress is be aware of power trips and respect. You are the most valuable person in that room to you and should require the Mormons to respect you and your time. Answer your questions with respect. Show up on time. Don't ask you to things with which you are uncomfortable.

They will give you homework, perhaps you can give them homework too. Make your efforts conditional upon their providing you answers and work that respects your concerns.

Well done, wise gentlestrength.

Sounds like a pretty good idea. You'll probably be blindsiding the missionaries A LOT! I know when I was on my mission, I had never even heard of tons of this stuff. I knew about DNA and horses, but thats about it. I didn't even know JS had multiple wives until my two years were nearly up!

You'll be bringing up issues for your friend to consider, and you might also shake the conviction of some unfortunate, brainwashed teenagers while you're at it! Just try not to be too mean about it; remember, the missionaries are victims of the Morg too!

You should probably go over the CES Letter: http://mormonthink.com/personalstories/A_Letter_to_a_CES_Director.pdf
Its got tons of good points to bring up. I know for me, the big things were:
1. No evidence of three huge, incredibly unique civilizations in the Americas. No Nephite coins, no wheat, no horses, no metal swords (Mosiah 8:11, don't let them get away with that Macuahuitl tripe!), no Hebrew or Egyptian derived writings, no Hebrew DNA, no evidence of Jewish religion, etc, etc. The list of things that simply aren't there is staggering.
2. The Book of Abraham is a clear fraud. You can prove that with nothing more than the missionary's own set of scriptures. Just open up to the facsimiles, show your friend how JS labeled and "interpreted" each picture and set of characters. Then show him that real Egyptologists have translated them, and that JS got everything wrong.
3. Polygamy. That whole thing just smells like crap. The missionaries are probably specifically instructed to try to steer the conversation away from the topic as quickly as possible (I know I was), don't let them change the subject. Make sure you talk about how secret it was and how JS lied about his polygamous marriages and snuck around behind his wife's back! Also don't let them get away with the common Mormon excuse that it was a way to take care of widows. Show them that it started BEFORE the trek out West, AND that Utah has always had more men than women, for as long as records have been kept ( http://www.mormonthink.com/joseph-smith-polygamy.htm#more ).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2013 03:38AM by nickname.

The CES letter is one of my favourite references :)

What about the different versions of the First Vision?

I'd wait until the part about the Atonement and then bring up and ask about the Messiah killing all those Nephites for the sin of unbelief in prophets, but forgave the people who actually killed Him. What purpose did it serve to destroy the other sheep before they had a chance to know their redeemer? And why did he do it AFTER opening the way to salvation by taking their sins upon himself and making the ultimate sacrifice on their behalf?

Would you go to jail if your friend had to spend the night in a drunk tank? Would you wear a straight jacket and stay in a padded room if he/she was committed?

Be honest with your friend and tell him/her not to take the discussions and to do research and brain power. If this person joins in spite of your efforts, it isn't your fault or your responsibility.

If you're going to go down this road then there's no point in brushing up on church history, CES letter, or anything doctrinal.

You'll just hit the testimony wall every time, and the missionaries will shift the burden of proof to the holy ghost.

If you bring up polyandry, they'll say they don't know but they've read the book of mormon and prayed and received an answer that it's true, and WON'T YOU DO IT TOO?

So IF you're going to allow yourself to take the lessons then your first attack (and the only attack that matters) is to attack the concept of testimonies, holy ghosts, spiritual witnesses, and the like.

You have to remove the testimony factor or you won't get anywhere. And your friend will wonder why it is you keep bringing up doctrinal stuff and not accepting the missionaries' invitation to pray about it.

Your whole plan will backfire unless you're able to show your friend (and the missionaries) why testimonies are bullshit..

Oh, yes! That's been running through my head a lot. I've been trying to make sure I am prepared for the typical TBM responses. I forgot to put that in the OP and now I can't edit it, but I want to make sure I can thoroughly avoid the possibility of the cookie cutter responses being viewed as valid in any way. I will gladly accept any suggestions on how to do that.

I feel as though I have the appropriate responses but there are always more things that can help.

I've seen this happen as a stake missionary back in the day.

The "friend" made a fool of himself by running around trying to sandbag us missionaries.

Even the guy he was trying to help was embarrassed by the end of the session.

It can be done, but requires a very light touch.

I think you make a good point. I dealt with a few detractors in group discussions as a missionary and learned some important skills and tools to lead and influence a group discussion.

I think the tone I would want in a meeting of differing beliefs and agendas would be to be the clever, informed, and thoughtful person.

I would think this would be speaking with brevity, but command. Not assuming I know something I don't, but not giving that to someone else either. Speak for myself, not others in the room.

Confirm objectives prior to engaging. The purpose of this meeting is to ......

I will add, I probably could not do this exercise even though I could technically do this exercise. I just hate the Spirit conversations and that is a foundation to these discussions. Start prayer--ask for Spirit, feel they know things from Spirit, scriptures talking about Spirit, I feel the Spirit in the room now, don't you?, and close thanking for th Spirit and asking for more Spirit.

Without coming to an agreement about how we can converse about serious matters and have differing Spirits and have mine not be of the devil and have theirs be of Joseph and Jesus, I would be a rough bear to wrestle.

I think its a great idea, actually. I wish more RFM posters took advantage of opportunities like this where they can open minds and plant some seeds.

The only thing is you have to be well prepared and have on hand documentation for everything you talk to them about. This way they can't weasel their way out and claim you are only citing "anti-Mormon lies." Everything you say needs to be backed up with actual quotes and sources.

First, have the entire quote and the primary source cited (i.e. Journal of Discoures, or Brigham Young's diary, etc). Second, I would have a secondary source confirming this primary source, which would ideally be a CURRENT, PRO-MORMON source, like FAIR or some LDS book sold at Deseret Bookstore. This way they can't say it is simply made up. You can point out that even reliable LDS sources state this piece of evidence is real. Third, I would read up on what the apologists argue, that way you won't be caught off guard if they happen to have some kind of rebuttal.

The evidence against the church is self-evident. Even if they come up with some argument, it will be lame. For example, if they respond to Brigham Young's racist statements with, "well, Brigham Young was just speaking as a man influenced by the opinion of his day." Just say "Well, in my opinion God would not allow his prophets to be influenced by current opinion, such as racism, and especially teach it to the church in general conference. I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on that one." And then move on to the next issue.

The most troublesome issues people cite most often are:

1) The Book of Abraham (but you will need to do some research as well as understanding the apologist arguments on this one).
2) The multiple (contradictory) First Vision accounts
3) Joseph Smith and his plural marriages (particularly, the ages of his wives, how many he had, marrying other men's wives, his threats of destruction to those who don't participate, etc)

Book of Mormon issues are also problematic for people, particularly the DNA stuff, but make sure you are prepared for this one as there is a lot research involved here too.

Warn your friend that they most likely won't have any answers (or good ones anyway) to your questions and that they are simply going to a) bear their testimonies and b) tell you to stop reading literature critical of Mormonism and say that you simply have to pray and rely on "the spirit."

Obviously, the mishies are going to pretend nothing you say is troublesome and they are going to try and trump you with their testimonies but, deep down, the wheels will turning for everyone in the room about what you are saying to them. Maybe one, or both, of the missionaries might take to heart what you shared and do some independent research on their own. And you friend will certainly realize they have no better answers than she does.

Your trump card might be this:

Read the definition of "testimony" out of the dictionary.

Tell them they don't have a "testimony" until they can tell you HOW they know what they SAY they know.

If they say they know because of a feeling, reply that what they are really saying is they FEEL they know and that doesn't work for you.

If it were me, I would start with the concerns about things that just plain don't make sense in the doctrine and let it build from there, rather than jump right in with facts and reason. Boil the frog slowly, so to speak - after all, even the most ardent TBM can relate to questions about confusing scriptures or doctrines (also, admittedly, I'm partial to this method because it's how I got myself out. I knew nothing about church history or scientific evidences until long after I'd left TSCC). This way, you can prime the pump a bit before hitting them with the good stuff.