Just pretend for a moment that Moses was a real person. And pretend that we weren't brainwashed as kids to think that hallucinogens and psychedelics fry the brain.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-525993/Moses-high-hallucinogenic-drug-received-Ten-Commandments-claims-academic.html

There is a tree that is commonly mentioned in the Bible, the acacia tree, that contains one of the most psychedelic substances known to man. People who take hallucinogenics commonly have profound "religious" experiences. Their perception of time is altered, objects can appear to change shapes, such as a rod turning in to a snake. Hebrew University of Jerusalem's Professor Shanon has taken the unorthodox view that Moses might have been tripping when he saw a bush that burned but was not consumed.

I have listened to a few educated people discuss hallucinogenics lately, and many of them have debunked the myths that I was taught as a child. Yes, there are some people who should not be anywhere near them, just like there are some people who should not eat peanuts. But the people who discuss them in an academic sense describe experiences a lot like Moses' story. We were given lectures in school and in church about the dangers of drugs. PCP (a dissociative anesthetic that causes hallucinations) was even vilified in pop culture in the original Terminator movie, where the police tried to tell Sarah Connor that the guy who put his first through the windshield of the car "...was probably on PCP. Broke every bone in his hand and wouldn't feel it for hours." But I'm starting to wonder if hallucinogenics weren't part of many "religious" experiences.

In Peru, Ayahuasca is used to induce religious experiences. It can, in fact, produce very intense experiences. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayahuasca
People who have had Ayahuasca tea talk about meeting God and/or learning their purpose on earth.

As an aside, Graham Hancock has a great TEDx talk about how Ayahuasca helped him give up marijuana. He says he got a "life review" from a female entity that helped him see how his excessive use was harming his family. He was able to give it up soon after that. See his talk here: http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/HancockG3.php
The article is amazing, too.

As another aside, but certainly not my main point is the possibility that Joseph Smith was tripping while he "met God" in the grove. Not knowing what kinds of drugs were available to him, it's hard for me to say. But if he were in the Pacific Northwest, I'd guess he was on shrooms. Of course, I think Joseph Smith's story is closer to an Ayahuasca tea experience. He claimed to have met God, spoke to angels with flaming swords, and had major revelations about himself and his purpose (to restore the Gospel).

So, just assuming that Moses was a real person, wouldn't it be interesting if he were tripping when he claimed to see God?

T-Bone

Disclaimer: I'm not advocating drug use, and I don't plan on taking any myself. I certainly don't advocate anything illegal.

Also, not knowing the difference between psychedelics and hallucinogenics, I use the terms interchangeably. This article has more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_drug

(Edited for clarity)
(Edited to fix bad link)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2013 03:19AM by T-Bone.

Moses, maybe. Joe? My opinion is he knew exactly what he was doing. I think he's a clasic con man.

I could make someone appear more authentic in their speech if they really did believe that they saw god (while high).

The biggest problem with Joey Smith was that he kinda forgot to write down the most important event in the history of the world until about 10-12 years later. That's not even trying to be clever but just outright fraud.

Moses would have to have been wacked to write down all the miracles and b.s. that he was taking credit for. Snakes, parting the sea, killing babies, calling down infestations from the sky. He would be a hit at burning man.

You have to remember that it is so hard for an academic to get published and gain standing in "the Academy," especially in the social scientists and the humanities. So much of their fields of study have been analyzed, dissected, sliced and diced. And when it comes to religion and theology, how can you come up with something that hasn't already been...studied and published before?

One way is to come up with something very strange, novel, and radical. A thesis such as this also makes its way promptly from the scholarly press (peer-reviewed journals) to the academic press, and down to the popular press--which is where this article appeared.

"Time and Mind," where his, um, "research" was published seems to be a rather free-wheeling journal where intellectuals with a bent for fanciful and mystical hypotheses make extravagent connections between obscure, ancient, or primitive cultures and exotic unifying theories. Rememember, just because an idea is expressed in convoluted compound-complex sentences, loaded with pollysyllabic jargon doesn't mean it's profound or even sensible.

Also worth noting, from wikipedia, is that Shanon "writes that he had consumed ayahuasca himself several hundred times and gathered a corpus of empirical data from published literature, structured and unstructured interviews he conducted and his personal experience. In total the corpus comprises some 2,500 ayahuasca experiences."

The guy seems obsessed with hallucinogens. I think his brain is fried, and his theory is not even half-baked. But if you're looking for reasons not to believe the Bible, then I guess this will do.

I personally don't think Moses was a real person. I am sure as hell that the exodus never happened, as it would be impossible to bring that many people through the desert without leaving a clue, nor to have the Jews living so long in ancient Egypt without leaving any proof of themselves there as well. At best, maybe there were a couple of stories that got kind of exaggerated.

Ho Ho Ho.

Shrooms rock!

http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2008/09/santa-claus-magic-mushroom.html

Stupid baby in a basket story was just to make it plausible that he was actually a Hebrew.

forbiddencokedrinker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> it would be impossible to bring that many
> people through the desert without leaving a clue,

The Bible says that there were 600,000 MEN among the Hebrew
children in the Exodus. That means a total population of at
least 1.5 million.

That would have made Hebrews the majority in Egypt.

If the story of the Exodus is based on a real migration from
Egypt it would have been more like 6000 or 600, or maybe even 60.

Well, for (more current) instance, a person can believe that Angels and dead prophets really did appear to the Latter day saints in the Kirtland temple lending credence to Joe Smith's personal coziness with God, OR a person can employ a much more conventional explanation to those people having mass visions (hallucinations) and witnessing miracles/divine manifestations.

Could it be chemically induced mass HALLUCINATIONS instead of mass observed divine manifestations?

(trying to be more conventional than *spiritual*(braindead)) I know version which I prefer.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihN2iOlyqp4

Life generally sucks, in earlier eras with out modern conveniences and modern medicine, life was even more miserable. This meant that getting high would hold even more appeal as an escape to the misery of life. It is completely reasonable to put a lot of stock in intoxication as an integral part of religious
traditions and experiences (a point that pervert Joe probably did not miss while posing as a prophet), because religion is about transcendence and getting high is transcendent, no matter how much it might tend to be discounted in these most current *latter* days.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2013 01:23PM by lucky.

I read somewhere that the apostles would sit in the Kirtland Temple and starve themselves for 2 days and drink copious amounts of fermented beverages and wait for visions.

This cult is so fucking stupid I can't stand it.

Why are my Mom and Dad so dumb?

Reading all of the accounts of the Kirtland temple experience just reminded me of all the wacky churches I saw on my mission. The men sat around and stood up one at a time and explained what they were seeing...flaming tongues, etc... Why the heck is everyone seeing giant flaming tongues?! Also, an angel came THROUGH THE WINDOW and sat on the stand while one of the brethren was speaking. What?!

I've always wondered what "flaming tongues" are exactly..Are they simply a ball of flame in the shape of a tongue? (Wouldn't a "flaming leaf" be a better description?) Or was it a severed tongue that was also on fire..? Darn, that's weird.

In the case of JS the case is pretty much confirmed that these "visions" were made up long after they supposedly happened, and that he didn't need drugs to bolster his fantasy. He was an experienced con-man that made a living by hunting for treasures that only existed in his victims imagination, the mormon church was only a much bigger scam than any he had pulled before but it was essentially the same thing.

As for Moses I don't think there was any. The story is probably ripped off from many earlier stories about various heroes, some even from egyptian origin as his name suggests, but it's mostly fable and little fact.

Who was Moses? Did he really exist or was he another Nephi?

If there was such a person and he claimed (not writers hundreds of years later) that he spoke to a burning bush and was given a tablet of commandments, yes he was baked out of his mind.

No need to do drugs when lying is so much quicker.

I've wondered, with no proof, if some of Joey's visions were, as some have suggested here, an outcome of some drug use. The "visions" in the Kirtland Temple dedication could have been strong alcohol or hemp use or maybe something like is described here. People got high back in the "old days" also. Opium was smoked in Hong Kong for a long time.

Video has been released of the Saints in Kirkland caught on an I-phone. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj2mB9aeDrI

Look close and you will see the angels on the roof of the Kirkland Temple.

This Moses-hallucinogen theory is certainly possible, in my opinion.

I've experienced powerful spiritual highs on certain prescription drugs and have borne my testimony in FTM in such a state. My testimonies were powerful & heartfelt. I was even under consideration for Relief Society President as our ward was shifting callings around.

It was all about the meds, they were incredible.

They are straight out of Hammurabi's Code.

with the Hebrew people. People would not have taken his laws seriously because they would have thought they were Egyptian/Canaanite (they were), so he had to make it look like they came from GOD.

This is how all religious law comes about. No need to be stoned at all, or to believe these ridiculous stories about the supernatural.

Intresting...

I ate some hallucinogenic shrooms two days ago and for a moment I actually believed I was walking in the garden of eden.

I have been an atheist my entire life, but during this trip I had strong godlike revelation. I don't think many religious people felt a revelation as strongly as I felt.

I believe Moses, Abraham, Jesus, Muhammed and Buddah all felt as powerful as I did, when they were in contact with God, and I also believe they shared their vision of what God is, not that God came to them.

Con man or tripping off his tits.

What do you think the guy was on who talked to the talking donkey?

We know Noah was a drunk. At least he admitted it.

The ten commandments are a reiteration of ancient Egyptian writings that are the challenge of any being trying to get into Egyptian heaven. These are further connected to ancient Sumarian traditions.

That certainly would explain this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TAtRCJIqnk