My therapist has a daughter moving home right now. She has decided to change colleges and live at home because it is cheaper. He knows she is his difficult child, so he made up a 2 page list of rules she has to live by--single spaced. She KNOWS him well enough to know that he still make her live by them.

She has household chores she is assigned. One of them is to fix dinner one night a week. Each of his kids have DEFINITE household chores. They've had them for years. As they get older, they are given more chores or more responsible chores.
Even his 2 college kids have curfews.

He has as part of the deal that if she isn't happy with the living situation and isn't going by the list of rules and doing her chores, she has 30 days to vacate the premises.

He told me today that he would expect his kids to surf friend's couches, etc., to learn their lesson.

He told me to make a list of what I expected. I did. My expectations are different than my therapist's. I won't put my child out on the street or surfing friend's couches. I have given him 6 months to get off the meds he doesn't need and if he doesn't do what I have asked him to do around the house, then I will not pay for his meds or his doctor's appt. I know he can't go off cold turkey, but I will make him go cold turkey if he doesn't do his household chores. I've made them simple enough for me to check up on that I don't have to be constantly nagging him. My therapist says I'm doing okay. I just didn't know I'd have to do it several times to get him out.

My ex also lives in our house--so I'm not just leaving the house to my son.

I'm an enabler. I admit it. My therapist said that this is the PARENTS' PROBLEM and they are the ones he has to work with--though he does work with the children, too. It is about parents being consistent and being TOUGH. He said that birds push their children out of the nest--and we tend to want to protect our children. My mother used to drive us around and force us to apply for jobs. My son wouldn't do this if I bound and gagged him. Therapist says our instincts are to protect our children--he says we have to go against our instincts.

He did point out to me that my son's twin sister is a huge success--so it has to do with children's personality types and not necessarily our parenting. My daughter has traveled the world, graduated from college, worked as an aide in a resource class for 2 years before college, and has worked the last 6 summers driving a tour bus for Princess Cruises in Alaska (earns excellent money).

So--I am an enabler and I know it. My son does better when I'm not around. Sad to say.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2013 12:19AM by cl2.

Reading the op thread, something sounds off about your son to me (other than the obvious). I hate to be rude about this, but has his mood changed when you moved? What about the job losses? That might be helpful in figuring out your plan of action if his plans fall through.

Either way, I feel a bit of sympathy for your son (been there), but at the same time I want to kick his butt while shouting cheesy speeches about doing something.

I agree with setting boundaries and limits, and stepping away slowly. As someone who lives in a multigenerational household due to schooling and helping to take of the family matriarch, when my parents started to treat me more like another adult relative I started to function as an adult. Don't delay it because it gets frustrating to be on that end.

Good luck on helping your son get on track.

ClaireRuin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Reading the op thread, something sounds off about
> your son to me (other than the obvious). I hate to
> be rude about this, but has his mood changed when
> you moved? What about the job losses? That might
> be helpful in figuring out your plan of action if
> his plans fall through.
>
> Either way, I feel a bit of sympathy for your son
> (been there), but at the same time I want to kick
> his butt while shouting cheesy speeches about
> doing something.
>
> I agree with setting boundaries and limits, and
> stepping away slowly. As someone who lives in a
> multigenerational household due to schooling and
> helping to take of the family matriarch, when my
> parents started to treat me more like another
> adult relative I started to function as an adult.
> Don't delay it because it gets frustrating to be
> on that end.
>
> Good luck on helping your son get on track.

He has always been a very difficult kid. He was on adhd med and that turned into abuse so needless to say I will never allow him to be on those again. He seriously lacks any kind o motivation at all.

There has been so much good advice given here. I really appreciate you all so much! I think my plan of action is to tell him to get rid of his car because I'm not paying for the ins anymore. He can stay with us for x amount of time if he gets his ged and is activley seeking employment

You can't parent a teen, you just have to hold on for the ride....

So--I'm taking a stance today on some things. I'm going to pick his clothes, tell him to get up and get dressed (he dresses goth, so I have to pick his clothes for this). I'm taking him to get a hair cut, get a new pair of shoes (rather than his goth boots). And taking him to temporary services at least to apply for jobs or he can go find another place to live.

I have to build up to confronting those who run roughshod over me. I always shock them when I finally put my foot down.

The other requirement is that he go with me to my therapist once a week and have my therapist "lay down the law" to him.

So--wish me luck. Good luck to the op, too. I was thinking that in the middle of the night, too--you should sell his car. My son drives an OLD, OLD castoff that was my ex's car. It ain't pretty.

But I don't have much room to talk.

These things will all be requirements for his doctor appts and meds. Last night by text at about 2 a.m. he said he was moving in with this friend of his. If he does, doctor appts and meds end. He doesn't have insurance.

My heart goes out to anyone else going through this. It is living hell.

Sometimes I wonder if kids are a product of the age where everything is handed to them and they don't have to work or think the government should take care of them. My mom and dad were married and on their own at 18 (not that this is preferable nowadays) but if they didn't work they would have starved because no one was going to be there to help them. My youngest brother lived off my parents for years until they finally said they couldn't afford to send him anymore money because they were retired on a budget. My mom finally directed him to Salvation Army for a box of food. At that point he realized living on the dimes of others while surfing all day wasn't going to work out so well. That was many years ago because is successfully self employed with his own family and lives in a beautiful home on a golf course. But he has finally grown up and became responsible.
I feel for you guys. One day at a time to help them become independent.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2013 09:50AM by snuckafoodberry.

I wonder what people think when they decide to have kids.

Do they realize that they are responsible for launching their children into a world that demands schooling and training, which requires MONEY.

It takes some kids longer to mature, sometimes an additional 10 years or so.

Don't have kids if you can't afford to help them long term.

Pushing them into dead-end jobs like McDonalds or, worse yet, out into the street,is abdicating parental responsibility.
You can't expect kids to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, most do need a leg up from parents.

And don't force them to sign up with the armed services - not unless you want to see them in body bags or minus arms and legs.

I guess my point is, don't have kids you can't afford.

It is harder for some kids to get off their duffs and work and quit living off parents. It takes mutual cooperation. It is a real problem nowadays. Yes, you give them tools to help them get out on their own but the kid has to take some responsibility too to try his best to get a job. Goth wear won't help him land a job. He knows that. Kids are kids for way too long. Can't always blame the parents for everything.
Plus, McDonald's is not a dead end job. Everything you put on a resume leads to better and better employment opportunities. You have to start somewhere. Not everyone is cut out for college.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2013 11:30AM by snuckafoodberry.

Claire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder what people think when they decide to
> have kids.
>
> Do they realize that they are responsible for
> launching their children into a world that demands
> schooling and training, which requires MONEY.
>
> It takes some kids longer to mature, sometimes an
> additional 10 years or so.
>
> Don't have kids if you can't afford to help them
> long term.
>
> Pushing them into dead-end jobs like McDonalds
> or, worse yet, out into the street,is abdicating
> parental responsibility.
> You can't expect kids to pull themselves up by
> their bootstraps, most do need a leg up from
> parents.
>
> And don't force them to sign up with the armed
> services - not unless you want to see them in body
> bags or minus arms and legs.
>
> I guess my point is, don't have kids you can't
> afford.

The thing is we help and help with no return from him. I have tried to help him get signed up to get his GED. I've helped him make a resume I look at Craigslist and tell him about jobs there. We have looked into trade schools for him. Believe me I haven't just made him fend for himself. But I can't be expected to pay his way while he does NOTHING to help himself become a better person.

is doing? My therapist has plenty of money. He gave his kids minimal money towards college. He expects them to earn their way. His son got scholarships. His daughter didn't. He has found kids given everything don't appreciate what their parents do.

My boyfriend's kids--they had their education paid for and have trust funds. Sure, they are doing "okay"--if you call having a college education and living off your trust fund successful. His son finally has a "decent" job I guess. He won't tell me what it is--makes me suspicious. His daughter is living in her mother's vacation condo--free of charge. He bought her car.

As I said, my therapist said this is an epidemic. Kids don't want to grow up. I've also applied for grants for my son--and he was approved. He never followed through--for 3 years now. He has worked jobs, but he isn't now. It is like every time he loses a job, we have to start from square one.

I WISH it was just ME dealing with this. It isn't. I have 3 people on my street dealing with the same thing.

mlyn627 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Claire Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I wonder what people think when they decide to
> > have kids.
> >
> > Do they realize that they are responsible for
> > launching their children into a world that
> demands
> > schooling and training, which requires MONEY.
> >
> > It takes some kids longer to mature, sometimes
> an
> > additional 10 years or so.
> >
> > Don't have kids if you can't afford to help
> them
> > long term.
> >
> > Pushing them into dead-end jobs like McDonalds
> > or, worse yet, out into the street,is
> abdicating
> > parental responsibility.
> > You can't expect kids to pull themselves up by
> > their bootstraps, most do need a leg up from
> > parents.
> >
> > And don't force them to sign up with the armed
> > services - not unless you want to see them in
> body
> > bags or minus arms and legs.
> >
> > I guess my point is, don't have kids you can't
> > afford.
>
> The thing is we help and help with no return from
> him. I have tried to help him get signed up to get
> his GED. I've helped him make a resume I look at
> Craigslist and tell him about jobs there. We have
> looked into trade schools for him. Believe me I
> haven't just made him fend for himself. But I
> can't be expected to pay his way while he does
> NOTHING to help himself become a better person.

my big question is....why? he sounds like someone who feels like he doesn't really have a future. :/ what is going on inside him?

Claire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder what people think when they decide to
> have kids.
>
> Do they realize that they are responsible for
> launching their children into a world that demands
> schooling and training, which requires MONEY.
>
> It takes some kids longer to mature, sometimes an
> additional 10 years or so.
>
> Don't have kids if you can't afford to help them
> long term.
>
> Pushing them into dead-end jobs like McDonalds
> or, worse yet, out into the street,is abdicating
> parental responsibility.
> You can't expect kids to pull themselves up by
> their bootstraps, most do need a leg up from
> parents.
>
> And don't force them to sign up with the armed
> services - not unless you want to see them in body
> bags or minus arms and legs.
>
> I guess my point is, don't have kids you can't
> afford.

I think that different approaches work for different kids, and the people who can judge the best approach is usually their parent.

I wonder if the problem is because the parents have helped and helped and helped and helped and helped and looked into this for him and done that for him and ...

Has the kid ever, in his entire life, been expected to just solve his own problems? I think the problem might be parents doing too damn much for their kids. I get you want them to succeed. I get you want to help them. But they'll never learn how to run if they don't fall down a few times when they're still walking. Ya know?

Looks to me like you've done every single thing for your kid except to teach him how to do for himself. He knows if he just sits around waiting long enough, you will swoop in and fix it for him. There's no incentive whatsoever for him to look into trade school or military or college for himself. Why turn off the WOW games when mom is in her room, furiously surfing the net for whatever I can do next?

This starts way back when kids are young. Just a couple generations ago, kids were expected to get to school in one of two ways: walk or ride the damn bus. But now I see parents lined up to pick up and drop off their kids. I think kids are way too coddled and spoiled in the last 20 years and that has created a generation of entitled spoiled brats who are incapable of taking care of themselves like normal adults.

Stop doing so much. Set a deadline for GTFO and STICK TO IT. I think you SHOULD just "make him fend for himself." That's not to say you can't offer tips and suggestions on exactly how to go about it. "Here's how you find an apartment; get a friend to split rent. You need to consider gas, insurance, groceries, phone, internet, and utilities as well. Let's figure out what you can afford." "Here's how you apply for a job." "Here's how you conduct yourself in an interview." "Here's how you suck it up and take the crappy manual labor job because it PAYS YOUR WAY."

dogzilla Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder if the problem is because the parents
> have helped and helped and helped and helped and
> helped and looked into this for him and done that
> for him and ...
>
> Has the kid ever, in his entire life, been
> expected to just solve his own problems? I think
> the problem might be parents doing too damn much
> for their kids. I get you want them to succeed. I
> get you want to help them. But they'll never learn
> how to run if they don't fall down a few times
> when they're still walking. Ya know?
>
> Looks to me like you've done every single thing
> for your kid except to teach him how to do for
> himself. He knows if he just sits around waiting
> long enough, you will swoop in and fix it for him.
> There's no incentive whatsoever for him to look
> into trade school or military or college for
> himself. Why turn off the WOW games when mom is in
> her room, furiously surfing the net for whatever I
> can do next?
>
> This starts way back when kids are young. Just a
> couple generations ago, kids were expected to get
> to school in one of two ways: walk or ride the
> damn bus. But now I see parents lined up to pick
> up and drop off their kids. I think kids are way
> too coddled and spoiled in the last 20 years and
> that has created a generation of entitled spoiled
> brats who are incapable of taking care of
> themselves like normal adults.
>
> Stop doing so much. Set a deadline for GTFO and
> STICK TO IT. I think you SHOULD just "make him
> fend for himself." That's not to say you can't
> offer tips and suggestions on exactly how to go
> about it. "Here's how you find an apartment; get a
> friend to split rent. You need to consider gas,
> insurance, groceries, phone, internet, and
> utilities as well. Let's figure out what you can
> afford." "Here's how you apply for a job." "Here's
> how you conduct yourself in an interview." "Here's
> how you suck it up and take the crappy manual
> labor job because it PAYS YOUR WAY."

You're right! I probably have done too much for him, but I have let him fall on his face too. I guess there's a fine line and I have crossed it too many times. I just hope I can step up now and do what needs to be done and that it's not too late.

There's nothing wrong with offering advice and guidance. Try to draw the line at taking actions or coming up with ideas about what actions should be taken.

As adults, we must learn to decide what we want and then figure how to go about making that happen. We do not learn this valuable skill if our parents set everything up for us.

I live in a college town so I have a couple friends who are professors or instructors at college level. They complain about parents -- of grown ass adults -- who call them to grade grub. The parents aren't in the class. The parents aren't doing the work. But they expect a professor to raise a grade or cut a kid a break just because they are the parent and they said so and because their precious snowflake isn't capable of doing the work on his or her own. When did this start? When I was in college, for most of us, our parents didn't even know which classes we were taking, nevermind did they call up the profs and get us better grades for doing nothing.

it is really easy for others to give advice when they've never been in our shoes.

I've tried literally EVERYTHING and here I am still trying. He is successful for a while and then we start over. Sure some of us have done too much for our kids--but I did just as much for my daughter as I did my son.

My son is moving in with friends. I hope it works out. I HOPE he gets a job. He agreed to go to town with me today to get his hair cut and get some new shoes--and apply at a temporary services place. I like the friends he is moving in with. I think we are better off APART.

This is living hell--so it is easy for those of you who have no children to offer advice. I'll continue to go to my therapist for advice. At least he has experience.

I did luck out in the area of my son did graduate high school by the skin of his teeth. Actually, I did let go of control IN HIGH SCHOOL and told him to just graduate. That is all I expected--and he did. It took a lot of effort. He had to take after school classes and for that I am GREATLY RELIEVED.

But until you are dealing with this, you have no idea how painful it is. My ex just told me he is just hoping someday this nightmare will end.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2013 02:22PM by cl2.

Feel free to disregard any opinions I might express.

Those opinions are based on direct personal observations with the 25+ nieces and nephews and the wildly different parenting styles of my five siblings. Just because I don't have kids does not mean I exist in a vacuum and do not possess any empathy at all. It also doesn't mean that I have no experience at all with kids. For all you know, I worked as a nanny to put myself through school and that's WHY I don't have kids.

But it does mean, apparently, that my opinion holds exactly zero weight with parents. But I noticed that you didn't ask for opinions and I didn't offer any directly to you. So there's that.

dogzilla Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder if the problem is because the parents
> have helped and helped and helped and helped and
> helped and looked into this for him and done that
> for him and ...
>
> Has the kid ever, in his entire life, been
> expected to just solve his own problems? I think
> the problem might be parents doing too damn much
> for their kids. I get you want them to succeed. I
> get you want to help them. But they'll never learn
> how to run if they don't fall down a few times
> when they're still walking. Ya know?
>
> Looks to me like you've done every single thing
> for your kid except to teach him how to do for
> himself. He knows if he just sits around waiting
> long enough, you will swoop in and fix it for him.
> There's no incentive whatsoever for him to look
> into trade school or military or college for
> himself. Why turn off the WOW games when mom is in
> her room, furiously surfing the net for whatever I
> can do next?
>
> This starts way back when kids are young. Just a
> couple generations ago, kids were expected to get
> to school in one of two ways: walk or ride the
> damn bus. But now I see parents lined up to pick
> up and drop off their kids. I think kids are way
> too coddled and spoiled in the last 20 years and
> that has created a generation of entitled spoiled
> brats who are incapable of taking care of
> themselves like normal adults.
>
> Stop doing so much. Set a deadline for GTFO and
> STICK TO IT. I think you SHOULD just "make him
> fend for himself." That's not to say you can't
> offer tips and suggestions on exactly how to go
> about it. "Here's how you find an apartment; get a
> friend to split rent. You need to consider gas,
> insurance, groceries, phone, internet, and
> utilities as well. Let's figure out what you can
> afford." "Here's how you apply for a job." "Here's
> how you conduct yourself in an interview." "Here's
> how you suck it up and take the crappy manual
> labor job because it PAYS YOUR WAY."


What you are describing is more of a form of neglect. Fixing a problem for your child instead of helping them learn to do it isn't really 'too much help'. It is way easier to fix something yourself and not explain anything- its faster, too. I knew a lot of parents who would just make up an answer when their kids would ask them questions about the world, and others who would buy things for their kids instead of spending time with them.

I also know a lot of kids who care more about what their friends think. They look up to people who are exactly as immature as they are so it does not occur to them to change or to learn to solve their own problems. Kids need their parents but hardly get any time with them because of school/working parents and such, its hard to keep the connection going. its worthwhile though.

Some parents, and Mormons in particular, are too harsh with their children.
Throwing kids away or forcing them into menial labor is rarely the answer.

We are not back in the last two centuries, and when people produce children they also need to see to it that those children have the means and the tools to make a good living in our society.

Since this young man held a job before, you may want to have him get a full physical and mental eval.
Something obviously is not functioning with him now.

Or, he may simply need a few additional years to fully mature.
Someone already was nice enough to take your daughter off your hands, so you may want to spend a little extra time/money/energy on the one who needs the help.

We all understand that raising kids is not easy, so best wishes to you and,hopefully, all will work out in the long run.

I don't understand today's parent/adult-child dynamic whatsoever.
I really don't intend any of this as insulting, it is genuinely mind boggling to me.
I couldn't wait to turn 18 so that I could leave and no one would force me to return.
Is there any way to make home life unbearable so that he WANTS to leave? Why does this result in threats of suicide as so many replies in the other thread seem to say?
I was vaguely suicidal in the few years leading up to 18 because I was a piece of property with no rights and there was nothing I could do about it, ending it all was an attractive concept, but I told myself it had to get much much worse to go there.
ANYTHING other than another day at home was massively attractive, even though I lived below the poverty line for years after the fact. The last two months before I graduated I was secretly giddy inside that the end of my sentence was nearly up.
But my parents were micromanaging nutcases, and I was the "bad child", they had labeled me so before I was even baptised. I guess it would be different if I was considered worth anything, or with potential, to my parents, but I had very rare positive interactions with them for years. Like I was an uninvited roommate that they had taken ownership of but hated anyways. Very confusing dynamic.
I really don't get kids these days, and that makes me sound like a total curmudgeon.

I do hope you find a solution, and it sounds like delivering him to a recruiter and then his first day in whatever branch of military will take him sounds like your best option.
Are you sure he's not blowing smoke up your ass with the GED requirement? My husband says the army will take anything, but his days of enlistment were long ago. Worth a phone call...

Also my husband the cynic says, let him go to Utah and peddle drugs, there are GED programs in prison.

I don't get it either I graduated early and got out of the house ASAP. My husband was out and working when he was 17. We do make it pretty miserable on him at home and for the life of me I can't figure out why he would want to stay and get bitched at all the time.

He seems to be taking things a little more seriously today. He was up at 8:30 to go talk to a couple places he had applied for last week. I gave him the number to the library for ged classes and told him if he will attend the classes that we will pay for his ged.

I don't know about the Army, he talked to a Marine recruiter.

"Also my husband the cynic says, let him go to Utah and peddle drugs, there are GED programs in prison." I'm dying right now! My husband and I were just talking about how our nephew got his GED through the jail HAHAHA!

I'm so glad you are laughing! :D

Well the marines only take the very best, and he proved himself right out of those ranks by not even completing high school. There are ways to get into the army though, check this out:
Http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/blgedplus.htm

However if he decides he doesn't want to do this after all it would be very easy to fail the entrance testing. :(

Perhaps you should consider moving to another house and not giving a forwarding address to the kid.

Let the new owners take care of him. That might give him a wake up call.

I must have said something that clicked because he is at a job interview as we speak and he is agreeing to get his ged and talking about going to Wyotech in Long Beach!

You guys have really been great!

To Cl2 good to hear he is getting a haircut and new shoes. Maybe it will give him a little confidence boost that and moving in with friends might be just what he needs! Good luck!

Hooray!

I do like what the other Claire said about getting evaluations for mental and physical health. You mentioned he is ADHD which I think needs to be treated somehow. Brain chemistry are different for everyone and does change over time. A teen does not have the same brain chemistry as an adult until they're around 25.

As towards societal commentary, yeah I was no way an adult at 18 or 21. It does take different periods of time and I think it depends on family and environment. Plus there's the whole focusing on being youthful and people saying to enjoy your youth why it lasts. Kids tend to get the message early in my observation and experience that once you turn an adult: you can never have fun again since you have a job. Another thing to think about is that humans are having a longer life expectancy (I believe I am in the 100+ generation) and perhaps proportionally people are delaying having the role of "adults".

Anyway, people will always complain about kids these days and the younger generation.

ClaireRuin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hooray!
>
> I do like what the other Claire said about getting
> evaluations for mental and physical health. You
> mentioned he is ADHD which I think needs to be
> treated somehow. Brain chemistry are different for
> everyone and does change over time. A teen does
> not have the same brain chemistry as an adult
> until they're around 25.

I know I'm going to get blasted for this, but I don't believe in medicating for ADHD. My son started abusing and went completely downhill when we started him on meds in HS. I have seen countless cases where ADHD medication is abused. This includes the ones they say are non stimulant. That being said I will look into getting him an eval and alternative choices of treatment.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2013 06:01PM by mlyn627.

This site may also be useful to him to help him remain in his look but still be smart.

http://www.waningmoon.com/corpgoth/