It's always disappointing to read someone spell out their definition of a word or phrase and find out that they mean something completely different, perhaps intentionally.

Now whenever _I_ and most people on this board participate in a conversation about equal rights, it means an end to discrimination based on race, age, gender, orientation, etc. Not something odd about respecting others' religions

When I say "I support equal rights", these days it is principally about marriage rights for all. There is still much progress to be gained on the other fronts too. Fights we've been fighting for years over race and gender have not been won everywhere yet sometimes it seems progress has only been accomplished in major metropolitan areas, and the opposition makes inroads whenever a particular issue is not the issue of the day.

Currently orientation and marriage are the hot equal rights issue. I am glad to hear each state that joins equality and there are more every year now.
Sadly I think the fight must be rejoined soon for gender and race. :(

I think it is very misleading to knowingly bring one's own definition of a word or phrase to an argument, and it has a striking resemblence to the pattern of unique mormon meanings of words that the rest of the world does not share. It is duplicitous and disingenuous.

It sounds so progressive to say that you support equal rights!

Even if your definition of equal means not equal...

+ a billion.

"it means an end to discrimination based on race, age, gender, orientation, etc. Not something odd about respecting others' religions."

That about covers it for me.

I find the attempt to lump the respect of religions, including cults, under the Equal Rights umbrella, to be the same as some politician only voting for an important bill so long as his own pet project can be piggy-backed onto the bill.

Since most religions have appalling track records when it comes to discrimination, including their need to be respected as a right that needs to be protected begs the question, what are you really protecting? Their right to promote discrimination?

Redefining words so that they support your own particular viewpoint is manipulative, is not trustworthy and is not of good report. Words have verifiable meanings and are only useful so long as they maintain the integrity of their definitions, otherwise the exchange of information and communication are severely compromised.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2013 09:11PM by blueorchid.

can't be the reason for something like denying a job or firing someone, use of public facilities or getting public assistence.

None of that counts within the confines of a person's private life and doesn't cover personal conversations inside their own home.

When I posted about Equal Rights, I made a clear association regarding religious choice as it applies to leaving the LDS Church. I thought I made that clear in the post.

It's my observation that some folks that leave the LDS Church, for instance, don't give the same Equal Rights to religious choice that they want for themselves.

It is used in many other situations, conditions : employment, marriage, career opportunities, equal pay for equal jobs, and on and on and on.

Apparently, some may have missed my point.

It is not an exclusive term. It's been around for many, many decades.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2013 06:33PM by SusieQ#1.

If I were going to restate for you I would change "Equal Rights" to liberty. As in people are free to act not be acted upon. Equal Rights is very close to exclusive in that it refers to laws legality and statute.

Nice use of passive voice there, lol.

Nobody even called you promormon over here nor in your own thread. Nobody missed YOUR point.
YOU missed the point that THIS thread is about EVERYBODY ELSE. It's in the title, how did you miss that?
You are reading things that aren't there.

Saying that redefining words is something mormons also do is comparing behaviors.
It isn't calling you a mormon fangirl, it's calling out behaviors. You responded with straw man arguments trumping up false accusations because you can't actually refute the point that you are trying to use words in a way that most people don't.
It's a slippery way of communicating that mormons also happen to do.

I don't mean anything more than what was actually said.
You read things that weren't said because you have a habit of hiding meanings and messages yourself. It's called projection.

Statutory rights, things like voting, marriage, or even something as inane as buying beer must be evenly applied in order to comply with an individual's natural rights.

Natural rights, things like life, liberty, and other things that are not artificial must be acknowledged as sacrosanct before most modern societies even start to form.

Equal rights, in my mind applies to statutory rights and statute must be blind to race, gender, orientation and even religious belief. That doesn't mean that you must accept stupid beliefs it means that stupid beliefs, or race, gender, or orientation cannot cloud statutory rights.

I have been around long enough to have lived through a major issue of Equal Rights - The Civil Rights Movement of the 60's.

I've also been fighting for Equal Rights for equal pay for equal work, and have yet to see it across the board. I was working when the minimum wage went up to $1.00 with much acclaim.
I worked in banking where I was assured that the same jobs were paid equally--male and female. I took it on their word that was true.l

When someone falsely accuses me of being: "pro-Mormon" I say: No, I am FOR Equal Rights - that includes everyone's choice of religion also.

In the LDS Church, there is no such thing as Equal Rights! Women do not have the same Equal Rights as men do. Women are not given the same rights. (I could write a long dissertation on the subject of women in Mormonism- and I have in years past.)

Yes, as mentioned, Equal Rights has a much larger meaning: natural rights, liberty, laws, equal treatment, equal health benefits, recently it's been attached to equal marriage rights. I could go on and on and on.

The phrase Equal Rights in America has nothing to do with respecting religion.

It has to do with enforcing equality. Different thing all together. Nothing to do with respect. Nothing to do with allowing people to have crazy beliefs.

In America we allow any damned religion to do any damn thing they want and we don't even tax them. We even allow them to brainwash their kids, and treat people badly. Their rights are not in danger. They are putting everyone else's rights in danger though. Personally I don't think the law should allow parents to teach their children to worship and follow a pedophile like Joseph Smith, and I will certainly not show respect, but hey, this is America and I will go by the law like everybody else.

So when you try to paint the religious people you have so much respect for as in need of protection on the same level as race, gender, disability, orientation, etc., many feel that you are demeaning those all important issues.

Blacks and other races, women, gays, the disabled, have all fought too hard for their rights to have religious respect lumped in with it. And as long as you do that you are going to get this kind of reaction, which is not a mis-understanding. It is a reaction to perceived insensitivity.
I tried. :)

Wait, what? Religion is a suspect class within all nondiscrimination laws within this country, the same as race and gender.

You missed it entirely. Try re-reading everything, starting with SusieQ's posts.

We are not talking about discriminating on the basis of religion. That has not even been brought up here.

...but I do not have to pretend to respect it. In fact, I don't respect bigotry, religiously based or not, and iwill not be quietly polite about it for fear of hurting the bigot's feelings. Hell no. Religion absolutely does not get a free pass! If you're a bigot, open season! As a bigot, your ideas and attitudes regarding said bigotry do not get respect or consideration of any kind.

Big, HUGE difference, SusieQ et al.: Religion is a choice, as well as any other mental, societal thing, such as political views, whether you think okra is disgusting or not, whatever.

However, and this is a big however, gender attraction, association, sex (male/female/intersex), race, ethnicity, age, are all not changeable. They are not a choice. They are sacrosanct. Religious beliefs do not fall into that category, no way, no how.

As has been explained over and over ad nauseum, people OF COURSE have the right to believe whatever they want, even that there is a teapot orbiting the earth, giving celestial advice, but shouldnt expect others to tiptoe around such beliefs in abject deference. Its goofy, but harmless. Mormonism is very far from harmless, and if anyone tries to shove their beliefs onto me, I will shove back. I bloody well do have that right. If they try to teach their beliefs as science in a public school, best look out below.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2013 08:03PM by serena.

Sorry, but from a purely legal perspective you are wrong. Religion is a protected class in the United States' anti-discrimination laws.

You seem to misunderstand what those protections entail.

There is no law that forces anyone to feel respect for anything. People have the right to their bullshit beliefs, that's the first amendment. People also have the right to call other peoples' beliefs bullshit, that's also the first amendment.

+ 1

The right to religion, or our right to hate that religion, speak against it, persuade others to stay away from it, and generally attempt to bring that religion down, on a purely intellectual level, are PROTECTED in the very same amendment. The first amendment. Oh how I love the first amendment!

To say our hatred of the Mormon church is "discrimination" is a misuse of the word.

This is just wrong. Religion is very much a protected class when it comes to anti-discrimination laws. You many not respect someone's religion but you can not discriminate against someone due to his or her religion.

"You many not respect someone's religion but you can not discriminate against someone due to his or her religion."

Exactly, this is what we are all saying. Before you go around telling everyone they are wrong, consider that maybe you misunderstood.

We understand you cannot discriminate based on religion. But I damn well don't have to respect religion and that has nothing to do with Equal Rights.

The question of Equal (civil) Rights is not a question of who or what cannot be discriminated against but who or what can influence laws. Equal (civil) Protection is what you are talking about.

I added civil because for whatever reason there is some confusion about the usage of the word/phrase.

Oh my yes!
I read a lot of discrimination re: the Mormon religion -- some folks are very much against it, try to get people to leave it, want it destroyed, try to keep people out of it, and demonstrate hate and rage towards it.
Yup. I'd say that is discrimination folks!

If you don't appreciate my posts, why are you reading them? If all you want to do is find fault with me, personally, what I post, and how I use language,etc, how is that helping your process?

We don't have to agree. I'm sure we can disagree ... civilly.

Advocating that someone should lose rights or withstand violence based on protected criteria is discrimination.

Having opinions is not.

+1 Thank you for the pared down simple version. I love those.

Why are you reading the posts about "discriminating against the Mormon" church then?

Seems kind of odd.

Or firing someone, refusing to sell a house, obtain a marriage license, etc. That is discrimination. You know, like what happens to atheists, Muslims and gays, certainly the first two.

Stating disgust with the putrid LDS religion and wishing it would just go away is not discrimination. Its an opinion.