A bit of my background: I'm a married 37 year old female with 2 kids. I was BIC, I have 6 brothers and sisters- I'm the oldest. I left the church 18 years ago at the age of 19. I am the only person in my immediate family to leave- the rest are all very TBM. I had a rocky time with my family in the beginning, we've now gotten to a spot where we are friendly and respectful, we don't talk about religion at all. I would not say we are particularly close to one another, but we can handle being together.

My dilemma: My youngest brother was only 3 years old when I left the church as well as my parents house and I've lived largely in another state as he has grown up. He is now 21 and recently returned from a mission. I suspect, and have since he was quite young, that he is gay. I'm not close to him, but I worry about him. Now that he is a returned missionary, I worry about the pressures to get married and have babies. I hear comments from my parents about it. They are traditional mormon in their beliefs about homosexuality: "We love everyone, but it's a choice, it's a sin, it's wrong. We love you, but we will talk disparagingly about you behind your back." My uncle was gay and I grew up hearing all about it. As for me, I'm an atheist and I'm fully supportive of the LGBT community.

Part of me wants to take my usual path with my family- the comfortable and safe route that we have all grown into- I live in another state, we don't talk a lot- we stay in touch with technology and once or twice a year visits. We don't discuss anything important and we all let each other live our lives the way we individually feel is best (while probably all secretly disapproving of the other person's way of life). It's not authentic, but it works for getting by. But another part of me wants to say something to my brother, let him know he has my support.

My question is- do I ask my brother if he is gay? I don't want to cause any offense, I really just want him to know that he has a friend, an advocate- someone that will be there for him if he needs to talk or take a break from the mormon bubble or just needs quiet support.

What would you do? If you are gay, would you have appreciated a friendly family member offering support? Would I offend him if he is not gay (I feel about 95% sure he is, but who am I to judge where someone is at in their stage of identifying themselves- he may not be ready)? My parents and brother are coming for a visit and will be staying at my home- so the opportunity could present its self. Any advice?

He may not be gay, or may not be ready to confront it. Instead, just bring up gay rights in a neutral 3rd party way, letting him know you are cool with it.

Try sending today's SLTrib article in Steve Young, saying how cool he is for standing up for others. See how he responds.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2013 12:18PM by axeldc.

I feel for you, but have no good advice. Just sending your post to the top. Good luck.

What would I do? I would not say a word to him.

I have often wondered about several men and women that I thought might be gay, however, I would never say anything to them about my suspicions. If their conversation indicates something concrete, for instance, I'll make a calculated conclusion, but until I have a relationship that is open for discussion, I don't pry.

Several times, someone has told me a certain individual was gay, but I had no absolute knowledge so I took the position they were not until I have better information.

That's just me. Others may be more inclined to inquire or ask outright. He is your brother. If you are comfortable with asking, go ahead.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2013 12:24PM by SusieQ#1.

I think you have the correct answer in this part of your statement "I really just want him to know that he has a friend, an advocate- someone that will be there for him if he needs to talk or take a break from the mormon bubble or just needs quiet support."

My recomendation is that you not ask point blank if he is gay, but while he is there you can show your support regardless of any choices made.

When I returned from my mission (30 years ago) I would have freaked out if someone asked if I was gay. I was so TBM and that was not an option I felt available to me. It took me 30 years to come out because of church and social norms.

I am not gay, so I can't reply to that part of your question. However, I can reply to how a straight guy might feel if asked if he were, though our situations are a bit different.

I was always very active growing up and well integrated into the morg, however, I did not get married as instructed. I went to school (undergrad and a professional degree) and attended singles wards. I had girlfriends, but did not get married. Because I was older and Mormon and had opportunities, but did not get married, my family suspected I might be gay.

They never asked me, but somehow I heard the rumors. It didn't bother me. I laughed. It must be my good looks, charm and sense of style and of course... not married. TIC.

You can offer your support in a kind way and pose it as an "if" situation. He may not be and you can drop it. He may deny it and you can also drop it, but he will know you are there for him at anytime if needed.

I think it would be worse if he were living in Mormon hell being gay with a feeling of nobody to reach out to.

This is just my opinion, but I think an in person confrontation is not a good idea.

Personally speaking, it would have been a bit tramatic for me at that time in my life. If you want to directly ask him, I would do it in a letter or e mail. That will give him the luxury of being alone to process what your saying without having to respond on the spot. That way you also can think clearly about what you want to express, letting him know that you will support him either way.

I knew I was a lesbian at that age, but was also surrounded by anti gay TBMs on evey side. I was terrified of anyone even suspecting I was gay. I have a never mo aunt that, now looking back, tried to talk about the gay issue in a 3rd pary way, to let me know she was ok with me. But I was terrified of even going near the topic. However I think that if someone wrote me a letter in confidentiality, it would have been very meaningful to me. Even if it doesnt show for years it will mean a lot for him to know you're there for him, and I think will help make a crack in his devotion to the church. I think for sure you ahould write to him... make sure he gets it alone.

I was a good mormon boy growing up, went on a mission, graduated from BYU, etc. To be honest I've known my whole life that I'm gay, but it took me years to be able to admit it to myself. So being gay was my deepest, darkest secret. And I definitely would have freaked the hell out if anyone asked me if I'm gay.

Like others have said, make sure your brother knows you have positive views about gays and gay issues. Don't be obvious about it, because that would be almost as bad as just coming out and asking if he's gay. But mention that you have gay friends, you're in favor of gay marriage, etc.

If your brother is like I was it might take him a while to even acknowledge his sexuality to himself. Until he gets to that point make sure he knows you accept him no matter what and that he'll have your support when he does come out. If he does decide to come out he'll know he has a safe person to talk to.

Do not ask point blank if he is gay.

My family is like yours. Everyone does what it takes to get a long--not even agreeing to disagree,but just not bringing anything up or talking about anything important.

When I was in the position your brother is in now--TBM returned missionary and gay, I saw the world as very black and white, meaning there was the righteous mormon way and the misguided satan influenced ways of the world and there was no question which one of those being gay fit into.

At his age, he has to be dying for real love and affection--he wants it bad. So there is a crack in the door and you do have the opportunity to help him see that there is something other than a choice between good and evil--the choice that is neither of those things: real life. Hopefully if you open up yourself he will see that you did not choose between good and evil either, you just chose honest life.

When you have a chance to communicate, especially in person, you need to let what your family thinks go, be your most honest, fun, say anything self. Bring your real self to the party whether anyone wants to see it or not. He could be drawn to that and open up to you in ways that he never will to anyone else. Subtly letting it be known in conversation that you have gay friends. Don't announce it, it has to be along the lines of, "Oh my god, the other day we had lunch with Bill and Ted and you won't believe what Ted said.... hahaha." Make it sound good.

Let him know that you offer two things: No holds barred conversation, and no holds barred love.

Great advice! Thanks for this.

Even at 37, it's sometimes hard for me to just set aside all the perceived judgements I imagine my family is all making about me and just be myself. I would be lying if I didn't admit that part of my reservations in talking to my brother have to do with upsetting the relative calm that I've finally gotten to with my family. My parents told me when I first left the church that their biggest fear was that I'd be a bad example and lead my other siblings away. And with that, they destroyed close relationships I could have had with my siblings. In the last 18 years, I have been way over the top careful to support my siblings in their choices while simultaneously not discussing mine with them. It's left an intact relationship of sorts- but I certainly never feel like myself around them. I am struggling with my brother because I genuinely do not want him to go through the loss and loneliness I did- feeling like I had no one. And I made some really bad choices in my early 20's- trying to find the love and acceptance that I did not get from my family. I genuinely want to offer support- but on his terms.

Thanks so much for the advice! It really helps.

"My parents told me when I first left the church that their biggest fear was that I'd be a bad example and lead my other siblings away."

So you did what so many of us did: Proved to them that you wouldn't do that, that you would not try to sway anybody. And most of us went so far to the "high road" side, that we ended up on the sterile side with relationships devoid of any depth at all.

I did.

Thank you for saying that the way you did. It happened to me and I think it is giant trap for us exmos to fall into. The big challenge as I see it is to be yourself no matter what, but doing that and then "letting the chips fall where they may" is one of the most difficult challenges we face.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2013 01:59PM by blueorchid.

A person's sexual habits are no one else's business, with the following two exeptions:

1) who they have sex with
2) the law, if minors are involved

May I add the children they produce.

I say that, because there are many incidents where gay people are having sex with the opposite sex. Sometime they are married to the opposite sex. To think that this doesn't influence or have any effect on the children produced is irresponsible.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2013 12:39AM by Mia.

I'm gay Nd I have 6 older TBM siblings. When I was also TBM I Would not have wanted to be confronted. However, I would like to have been asked, "if you were gay, would you like to talk about it with family? "

As it turned out, for me, two of my siblings were aware I was gay, but we never talked about it, and since then they have passed away. I really regret not ever talking to them about it, and getting their support.

Good luck, whatever you decide.

Support gay issues. If you are on FB together, let him see that you stand on the side of LGBTQ issues by the links you pass on.

Read a David Sedaris book and give him a copy sharing some of your favorite essays.

Let him (and everyone else) know that you are comfortable in any discussion of SSA.

I've seen this asked a few times before here on RFM and can summarize the answers I've seen - Blue Orchid has already done a good job of handling this though.

Basically those who are gay have said they would not want to be asked point blank.

Here is a scenario you may not have considered. What if you ask him but he isn't ready to come out and answer you? Or what if he hasn't really admitted it to himself yet?

In either case instead of tearing down a wall you have put a wall up. If he isn't prepared to talk about it he will be forced to give you an dishonest answer which then prevents him from being comfortable talking about it later when he is ready for it.

So the best you can probably do is make your views about supporting LGBTs clear - not directed at him, but in general so that he knows you are a safe harbor if/when he finally is ready to discuss it. That and build your relationship with him that is independent of sexual orientation - express your love for him that he knows is unconditional - that works whether he is gay or not.


- There that's my summary of what I've understood as I've seen this question answered in the past.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2013 02:43PM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

My best friend is gay. I met him maybe just a year or two after leaving the church, so I still had a lot of mormon programming in my head. It took me a long time to really internalize the idea that it's not my place to out anyone, nor figure out what their sexual orientation is. The only reason that should matter is if I plan to get into the pants of the person in question. Since you probably don't want to get into your brother's pants, his sex life is no more your business than your sex life is his.

I wish more straight people could learn to turn this around on themselves more often. It's hard to see and grok "straight privilege" or heteronormity. But ask yourself what if the shoe was on the other foot. What if this was your brother wondering if he should ask you if you're straight? What message would that send to you? Are you close enough to have that kind of conversation?

Some of my closest family members have thought I'm gay for years, so I've actually had people straight up ask me. And it's kind of an indefensible position regardless of where you are on the Kinsey scale. If you say no, chances are the asker just thinks you're in denial, or still in the closet and they know better anyway. If you say yes, then you are pigeonholed with that label and that is how other people will define you.

I felt judged when my sister asked me. I don't know if it's because I'm straight -- maybe it seemed like I was putting out some sort of lesbian vibe that I was unaware of. It was hard to keep my cool, but I managed to ask what made her think that and ask? Turns out, it's just because I'm so adamantly single and fiercely independent. My family thought I didn't like men at all. I love them, I just don't want to live with just one forever. They also can't understand the effects of PTSD from sexual abuse -- and that's a part of it as well (for me). So what looks like lesbian manhating to them is just PTSD hard-to-trust-people to me. Because I'm in my own head, I know what's in there. They don't.

You are on the other side of this equation. All that to say: It's not your business. Just be a great sister and don't worry about who your brother bangs. If you're an awesome sister, he'll know you support him through anything so his sexuality is really, truly irrelevant. It it doesn't matter to you if he's gay or straight or bi or whatever, and it wouldn't change the relationship, then what's the point of asking?

All good things to consider! You are right- it's not my business. I think I'm approaching this from the side of being supportive, but perhaps that can be done without being nosey. Thanks so much.

Great post dogzilla. That is valuable insight into the complexity of the sensual and sexual human being. I have had a few friends that EVERYBODY swore were gay----and weren't.

The lesson here is what we all found out in the Mormon church: feelings are only feelings and assumptions based on them are unreliable at best and dangerous at worst.

It sounds by what others say here is that if you ask, and he is, he may be horrified by it. If you ask and he is straight, he may consider it a compliment.
If it were my brother and I pretty much knew he was I would probably want him to get out of the church before he got married. Only he can decide for himself. I'd probably just tell him I support gay marriage. He would know from that where to turn if he needs to.

SEXUAL ORIENTATION belongs only to the person involved!

"Are you pregnant?"

"Have you slept with her yet?"

"When are you guys having kids?"

"Do you have erectile dysfunction?"

"So, any prospects for marriage?"



You can always broadcast your take on a subject and see if anyone feels like sharing.

Add:

"Do you live the law of chastity? Please elaborate."

Could he be asexual? I have only recently been schooled on some people having no sexual attraction either way. I need to learn more but I think that many of us, myself included, need to realize that sexuality is a lot more fluid than heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual. (I have a niece that I think is transsexual). However, until/if she ever tells me anything about her sexuality, it is really none of my business. All I can do is convey to her that I am accepting of equal rights for all, with the caveat of excluding relationships where a participant cannot give informed consent.

I would not ask him point blank if he was gay but find a way to work the topic of homosexuality in a conversation.

Complain about the "intolerant culture" of "religious America" (don't directly attack LDS Inc as he might get defensive) and how they think being gay is a choice. Then talk about how sad it is that someone you know (or hear about) who's gay and ended up marrying a straight person, having kids, and never being happy, etc. and how people don't "overcome" their gayness. Make it clear how much you can't stand this thinking and that you support gay marriage and your gay friends, etc. Talk about gay people living in tolerant and open neighborhoods and cities where they can live happily ever after. Make sure he knows how supportive you are of people coming out, being gay, etc.

See how he reacts. Maybe he'll open up. If not, then maybe he's not gay, or he is not ready to open up. At least you threw him a bone and he will know he can come to you when/if he needs to. And hopefully through your conversation, he'll realize that getting married to the opposite sex is NOT a good idea if he's gay.

But I was always temple worthy; got married (had vasectomy) so no kids; divorced now. My godsend was Affirmation, I wanted to be TBM for the longest time. I left because of the history and doctorine, not because I wanted to live the gay lifestyle. PFLAG and Affirmation may help http://www.affirmation.org/ I wouldn't just straight ask, but at least let him know you're willing to discuss.

I was absolutely certain that my cousin was gay. Everyone I know was absolutely certain he was gay. It turns out, we were all wrong. (He just got married--to a woman--and he has NO reason to be closeted.) So, no matter how strongly you suspect that your brother is gay, you might be wrong.

You are best off just letting him know that you are gay-friendly by discussing LGBT rights in general.

No...don't ask him. He'll be forced to deny it if he's not ready to come out of the closet. Just like I've done all my life, and continue to do. The pressure is unreal inside the church. Please don't add to it.

I would say be there for him and give him so pro-truth mormon literature. The feelings he's having inside are from a cult's doctrine. If he realizes LD$ Inc is a cult, it would cause a lot of introspection that can only help! Without the cult judging him and him realizing it's a scam, it can only help him from being self-loathing of his preference.

I know gay mormons and they're totally in denial. They create props... I mean children to cover up their true selves. That's no way to live.

You got out of the cult. Get your brother out as well.

Lastly, do you know what the most screwed up part about all of this is and not even the OP covered it? You seem to have a somewhat distant relationship with your brother and still sensed he was gay. Your parents HAVE to know or have these same feelings as you and they probably have denied that their son could be gay. That's sad.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2013 12:24AM by newcomer.

You said you've been trying so hard to respect your family's beliefs that you feel like they don't know who you are, and that you don't have great relationships with your brothers and sisters. Don't forget that relationships go both ways.

My family is active LDS. I'm the one who left the church and came out as gay. We've had our rough times over the years, but we've reached a spot where we respect each other's lives and beliefs. I'm not going to change their beliefs, and they know (sometimes by learning the hard way) that if they want a relationship with my partner and I they have to treat us with respect.

My mom is the one that's had the hardest time dealing with me being gay. I've never doubted she loves me, but I also know that this has been difficult for her. The first time my boyfriend and I went home together for Christmas she informed us after we arrived that we'd have to sleep in separate beds. It was her house so we had to follow her rules.

The next couple of times we went home together we stayed in a motel instead. I don't think she particularly cared for that because she later changed her mind. Ever since then we stay at my parents' house and sleep in the same bed. So we respected her rules, but also let her know they were unacceptable to us. So I guess what I'm saying is that it's great to respect your family's beliefs, but it's a two way street. Don't be afraid to expect them to accept your beliefs as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2013 12:44AM by bezoar.

I'm astonished at all of these responses. Personally, I'd ask him. But I'm really open that way.

I guess it's because so many of you live in the Morridor and belong to TBM families. Around here, being gay is no big deal. Young dudes come out all of the time.

I'd think your brother would be relieved to have a family ally to confide in.

;o)

I would either ask him outright or drop the subject. I am single and don't want to get married. My TBM family already suspects I'm gay. (why else would I not be married) They tried the passive aggressive approach and it made me feel like crap. Ever so often a gay conversation would come up that wasn't very spontanous and seemed - well, more planned. They didn't even care enough about me to ask a direct question and open a truthful and honest discussion. A discussion in which both parites are vulnerable and share feelings.

You don't need to know!

Every Mormon, gay or straight, needs an advocate. Your brother is on a mission for a lying cult. He already needs your help. You can let him know that you are there for him, if he has any questions, or just needs someone to talk to.

It is none of your business if he is gay. Many young men are unhappy in Mormonism, and the suicide rate is very high among young mormon males, gay or straight.

Your brother already needs you, so go with that. If you get too nosey, you could ruin your relationship. Respect him as a person.