To clearify myself. FOR ME, to face the world and its problems & challenges w/o a divine influence, would feel meaningless. To go through problems & not think there is a light at the end ofthe tunnel(thats not a train) would feel purposeless. Maybe I am just afraid of not existing after death. Maybe If I made some monumental contribution to the earth,eg cured cancer,etc. Id feel like I had purpose. But I live a small life. So Id like to feel all this sh%@ is for somthing! I like to add a couple of things.

I live a small life, but it's not meaningless or purposeless, even without "divine influence." What makes you think that a person's life without god has no purpose?

LOOK Im not saying your life has no purpose. Im saying thats how I would feel. Isnt one of our issues w/tscc is the attitude that all people must want & think the same way? If U have meaning great! Im just expressing how I would feel.

And I'm expressing how I feel and I asked you a simple question.

Just to clarify, i believe the OP said "FOR ME". As it was in all caps i believe they were very clear they were stating how they thought about their life....not u or anyone else's. they did not extrapolate about anyone elses, as you must have though per: " What makes u think thst s persons life without god has no purpose".

Got it. But my response was conversational, not confrontational.

Got it. so difficult with only written words and no facial exptesdions or tones to figure out the nuances. apologies

I hear you. When my faith first got deconstructed I went to the library and checked out a bunch of books with NDE experiences. I wasnt prepared to have god ripped out of my life. Im not sure I believe in life after death anymore.....but I still hope so.

Cont. 1st I do realize athiesm is a legitamate belfE System. 3 of my kids are athiests. But I have told them I'd rather they believe in something than nothing. Cuz there will be times you'll need that. 2nd some one asked for proof God exists. Just cuz you cant see somthing doesnt mean it doesnt exist! In the 1400 the world was flat. Native american had never seen large ships or guns(or horses,only tapirs!) But they still existed. Atoms cant be seen,yet we can split them! This world seems so temporary to me!

I think that's kind of like finding your own calling in life. What is it that you have to contribute to the world? What do you love doing? Is there a cause you are interested in?

I believe that the small interactions you have with kids, grandkids, spouse, co-workers, even the mailman have a cumulative effect on the world.

Everyone has something important to contribute, even if it's teaching other people how to live and love, without conditional rules and regulation on worthiness.

Just because something unseen might exist is no reason to say it does exist.
The native americans who had never seen horses did not have faith in the existence of horses, they were wholly unknown to them.

To believe in a god you have no evidence exists is not at all the same as to be unaware of an animal species you haven't seen.

Being an Atheist isn't a belief system. You say you believe in god . I say I don't believe your claim of god. But that's it. I believe in things. I believe in myself, my family and friends because when I ask for help they give it. Just because I can't explain something I'm not going to say god did it. I want truth and evidence not to just say god did it. I am also happy to say I don't know. Do you also believe in fairies and trolls etc. What about Thor and all the other gods and goddesses do you also believe in them?

I'm not saying that you'll change your way of thinking about this, but after a few weeks I realized that my life still had meaning.

There are tradeoffs to realizing that you won't live forever or be a god/goddess. I felt like I became truly mortal for the first time. Death became real. That sucked. But I also realized that this life isn't a test. It's not a dress rehearsal. This is it. And my life is MINE to live and to judge, not some absent God's.

So I guess I could say that I lost the NEXT life, but I got THIS one back. And if there is no next life (and I don't think there is) I didn't waste the whole of this one to earn a fake reward.

I HAVE TO ADMIT LLIVING IN THE HERE AND NOW IS A HARD CONCEPT FOR ME. One of my beliefs is that we are here to learn. And I dont feel one lifetime is enough to learn everything. Maybe Im A remedial reincarnatist.Ha!

Take a step back and stop letting others assign meaning to your existence. Life is and can be what ever you want it to be. You are the master of your life, don't let anyone take that power from you again.

30+ years of working toward eternal life, and postponing gratification doesn't go away easily.

I also feel that one life isn't enough to learn everything I want to learn. But at least I won't get bored!

Hello cowardly lion,

I UNDERSTAND, and for the record I beleive in a life after death. A lot of it is based on my mothers NDE and that of a close friend (who is now dying), and few of my own experiences. Ifeel the wonderful thing about leaving tscc is that we get to CHOOSE what we beleive, so you go ahead and do that CL, and don't bother about what anyone else thinks. YOu have the right to beleive what you want and to me, your reasons for believing as you do are VERY valid!

As for the 'little' life you and I lead, that is similar to us all. We would all like to make a difference to the world en masse, but for most of us that isn't possible. We get to be a credit to the world we live in and do what good we can. I don't ever discount the little things, they are as important as the big things. You are a kind caring and thoughtful person. I am sure there are many people whose lives you have touched for the better. Just because there are some who may discount those things doesn't mean YOU should. I beleive there is someone on the other side waiting for you and I and will say "I know it was tough, but you did WONDEFULLY well". While all of us make mistakes, our overall contribution is positive, and I beleive that is SO worthwhile.

I hope you have a better day today, and as I said in another thread, I am thinking of you!

Do your feelings about post existence effect reality in any way?

Put it another way, what you hope and want isn't always going to be what you get.

To me the question isn't what do I want things to be like, it is what are things really like. I don't want to live a life of make believe. I don't want to try to wish things into existence, to me that is meaningless. To me my life took on true meaning when I realized that living in line with reality was truly liberating.

I suggest you take a look at Secular Humanism (Council for Secular Humanism). It is where I ended up after several years of evolving beliefs after leaving Mormonism. They have some great stuff on making your own meaning in life.

are you not proselyting directly? suggesting what someone should believe?

or is this board about what you should not believe,references to alternatives are ok? suggesting a developed belief system?

I don't know if that's complying with board policies. Secular humanism isn't an anti belief system, its also positive, and it has a focus. Is that ok to direct someone to it?

I think I get you. Everyone wants to have a life they will be proud of "when they meet their maker", even if it turns out there is no "maker".

I think everyone should strive to accomplish good in their relationships with others, and refrain from being a user. It's simple ethics and morality.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2013 07:37PM by crom.

Cowardly Lion,
I am one of the people who others have found to be snarky or childish, so I want to let you know that I wholeheartedly support you in believing whatever truth you percieve. You live however you choose. You live in the details of your life and you are in a better position to make sense of them than anyone else.

Reson is improperly named because it doesn't give reasons, emotions and feelings give reasons. Reason actually gives means for fulfilling those emotions and drives. I think that people here are not saying that they think you are inferior for believing in God. (Well, some probably are) Most are just saying that they think that leaving God out lets you accept your reasons (drives and emotions) and take control of your own life in figuring out how to balance and fulfill them without dogmatic interference. If God and an afterlife do that for you then those decisions are wholly yours, and I for one never mean to imply that they aren't.

My problems have never been with feeling that anyone is stupider than me for believing.

My problems have been with two things:

The implication that there is something wrong with atheists, that we don't have a properly open mind, if we don't seriously consider the existence of a God or NDEs. We don't have to and there isn't anything wrong with us if we don't.

And the implication that I need to treat mainstream christianity as better and more rational than mormonism. I don't have to. I think sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. I think some christians want to call mormons intolerant for finding fault with christian churches, and at the same time want to call mormonism false for being more Gnostic or Pagan than they are. That rubs me the wrong way. Isn't that intolerant towards Gnostics and Pagans? Why are they more ridiculous than Christians.

I think we will all do better here if we keep criticisms specific to doctrines, ideas, and behaviors.

On the other hand if someone criticizes a doctrine, idea, or behavior, or even seems snarky about it, we can separate ourselves from than and not get too offended. We want to be able to discuss these things vigorously don't we?

In the face of criticism or even mockery we can all hold our ground and clarify what we mean, like you did above.

I think that people like me can try to make this a more welcoming place for members of all beliefs.

Also, a lot of the time with just bare words on the message board a comment can seem a lot meaner than it was meant to be.

Let's say after all there is no God in the end and we just die. What kind of choices would you make? Would they be different than you make now? I choose to believe in God against all odds because I need to for my well being. I need to believe. Do I doubt? I believe there is a possibly I am wrong but I will take the risk and choose God.
If I did not believe in God I would make the same choices I am making now. There wouldn't be any difference in my conduct in any way. I just would not have a God to talk to or to care.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2013 10:25PM by snuckafoodberry.

I can understand that. Everyone needs to make sense of the world in their own way. You are not the first person, nor will you be the last, who believes in a divine energy. If that comforts you and gives you hope, so be it. We all want to be loved and to feel accepted. These are basic human needs. You are meeting your needs in a way that is personally satisfying.

"If there is no God, we have been "coughed" into existence by a blind cosmic process, and our lives have no objective meaning and purpose. Each of us will die, and when the universe burns out, so will the human race. We may pretend otherwise, but nothing really matters in the end." Quote by Christian philosopher WIlliam Craig.

Fear tactics to keep people from doubting their faith.

I can see where you are coming from. My own relationship with God was that above and beyond all else in this hell we make for ourselves, there was an entity who loved me. A place of assignment that even at its lowest degree of glory was far better than this mortal world. But along with that hope and trust was the ever present other side of the coin that said if I wasn't good enough, that God would ask me to be away from him.

A lot of that fear was believing the LDS version of Jesus' mission on this earth; that he died to fulfill the Law, so that Heavenly Father could have us return to him. That Jesus loved the Father enough to go through all of his agony to secure us a place with the Father, and that Jesus' Atonement was the perfect example of obedience. Contrary to the New Testament, the D&C teaches that Jesus will be the punisher.

A to that the constant worthiness interviews and the insinuation that God is bound by the judgements of a Bishop or priesthood leader and you have a recipe for self-doubt and fear of failure. Too often I have good and wonderful people say "IF I can make it (to the CK)"

First off, I am mostly a believer, but sometimes I wander into Agnostic and Humanist territory. Having said that, let me ask a question:

Do you think that people who are seeking a heavenly reward and escape judgement are more secure in their mortality than those who believe that once they die they are no more?

And if you were to be gone once the Big Sleep comes, would you seek to make your life more meaningful within your own sphere instead of waiting for wreward and meaning to come after you die?