“It is better to die in defending one’s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.”

Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 196


This topic came up in conversation yesterday between my TBM inlaws , my TBM wife, and myself. I mentioned this quote to my TBM MIL and she said, "Well, I don't know anyone who wouldn't fight back!" Now, I assume that the majority do, but I assume there are likely situations where a victim would not fight back, for example if they had a gun held to their head or if it would cause them more physical harm.

This really bothers me that this was ever taught by someone who is held in such high-esteem by TSCC. If, heaven forbid, this ever happened to one of my daughters, I would want them to know that it absolutely, 100% was not their fault.

After the Elizabeth Smart interview, where she told that part of the reason that she didn't try harder to get away from her abductor was that she thought she was a "chewed piece of gum", I think you could see The Miracle of Forgiveness join the writings of Bruce R McConkie.

My daughter took it. Of course, our multiple copies were long gone, so she had to buy a new one. This was just a few short years ago that she took a trimester long course on just this book alone.

there is a 'miracle of forgiveness' institute class???

wtf

Yeah, that quote gets my goat, as do a number of others from that book. It's a despicable message.

Piece of Shit mind for you...
Why would you be bothered by it?

And many women don't fight back because they are terrified and cannot move. There's plenty of research that shows that. I hate willful ignorance.

Isn't he really saying that unless the woman dies, it's not really rape?

Keep in mind that this was said by a man who never needed to defend his "virtue."

What bothers me the most about this discussion is the underlying assumption that rape is always a situation wherein A) the victim is dressed in a way or doing something that she shouldn't be, B) the rapist is a completely random stranger and C) the rape took place in a dark alley or with a weapon of some sort.

Probably 20% of rapes are violent stranger rapes.

It's not always a physical fight. An abuser/manipulator/controller/bully might groom a victim into compliance before ever touching that victim. Most of the time, the victim knows her attacker. Most of the time, she is dressed in normal, everyday clothes and her activities and location at the time of the rape were also normal, everyday events. There's a lot more ways to overpower, dominate, humiliate and control someone other than cornering a complete stranger in a dark alley and holding a knife to your throat.

So what this message really says is, "If you weren't raped in a situation that wasn't a violent stranger rape, then it was probably your fault somehow or it wasn't really rape."

I thought I was on the hook morally for my abuse precisely because it wasn't a violent stranger rape. It was my stepbrother and occurred in my own house, in my own room. Yet, I did not consent in any way, shape or form. Nor did I tattle, knowing either I wouldn't be believed or that I'd be blamed for it anyway (which is what happened).

It wasn't until I went to college and took Women's Studies classes that I actually learned that what happened to me really is rape and I could call it that and I'm not lying or stretching the truth a bit. This message is insidious to me not just because it's a sick, twisted, damaging message, but because it seeks to define rape so narrowly, which opens the door for the victim to blame herself instead of holding the perpetrator accountable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2013 04:21PM by dogzilla.

"chewed piece of gum" where the hell did that come form? Chewing gum and morality are not the same thing. Morality and virtue are related but not the same. What does anything have to do with sexuality? Is that what they are leading to? Suppression of what is normal in nature, the need to connect sexually and emotionally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality

To me there is nothing more immoral than to control others by wrongly difining virtue. There are greater wrongs that have been done to humanity than giving into ones sexuality. Rape has nothing to do with personal choice.

Do you all realize that a law was presented in the Utah, that if a woman became pregnant during a rape, that it well not be concidered a rape, because a woman isn't supposed to be able to conceive without having an orgasm? Therefore, a normal bodily response as having an orgasm or conception is consensual sex.

My mother didn't believe I was raped, because I got pregnant. She said I had to have enjoyed it and had an orgasm to have gotten pregnant. MADE ME SICK to hear my own mother say that. A woman with 7 kids. SMH

Ignorance is never pretty. I'm so sorry that you had to hear that from your own mother.

How does it feel to know your mother has had exactly 7 orgasms in her life?

That is so sad to hear. There are way too many misconceptions by people. Then too many like you get hurt.

I wonder what my two friends were thinking when they read that stupid book.

They were little girls whose father threatened them with a baseball bat if they made a peep. That went on for years. Finally one of them met and married a guy who was studying to be a family counselor. Shit hit the fan when he found out about dear old dad.

Dad got kicked to the curb. He then remarried a mormon woman that had 4 little girls under the age of 8. Now there's a sick woman.

They probably thought they were guilty sinners who needed to repent and that they were worth nothing because they didn't fight to the death.

Which is not usually offered as an option.

Well, I guess Kimball was never attacked by a huge linebacker. I weighed 117 pounds, and he was about 230 pounds. I could not move, and then, mercilessly, I lost consciousness from the pain. This man was not a stranger, but my temple husband, who had lied and pretended to me and my family for 8 months. His GA relatives lied about him, too, as he had a lifetime record of violence and assaults, including on his own sister. The first rape happened on my wedding day, in my own home, when I went upstairs to take a nap, because we had been up since 4:00 am to drive to the temple, and I wanted to be alert for our reception that evening. I begged him to stop--that I wanted to be a virgin in my wedding dress at the reception, and I wanted my first time to be romantic, in our pretty hotel room, He quoted D&C 132, the part that says that the women is subject to the man, and said, "You are now my property, and I can do anything I want to you." I did not know--and most of society did not know--that it was technically possible for a husband to rape his wife. I got physically sick afterwards, and I don't know how I ever got through the reception. I couldn't walk, and lied that I fell down the stairs.

I wonder if it is "protecting your virtue" to marry your rapist before he rapes you.

I am so sorry. That is not how a wedding day with a loving husband should go. You did not deserve that.

I admire you immensely. You are so strong to have survived that and to have built a better life for yourself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2013 08:09PM by summer.

I'm so sorry about what happened to you. You must have been in shock after that happened. Are you still with him, if I may ask?

http://www.janedoe.org/site/assets/docs/Curriculum_SSSA_2012/03_Marital_Intimate_Partner.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape

Marital rape is a crime.

I have a hard time understanding the conflict of rape vs virtue. How is it that a religion, which should be a place of safety, can so distort sexuality, intamacy, virtue, morality, and turn something like rape into the victims falt. I guess it is called slut shame now. No rape victim should have to suffer the pain that some of you discribed.

No wonder so many are leaving tscc. No wonder there is a need for this web site.











\\

Cowardly Mormons love stories about bravely defending things.

Guilt...it's all about guilt, control and power over the week minded.

Ron Burr

ok...this quote really brings out the fiery beast in me, and that's saying a lot as I have a classic redheaded temper. As a woman who was raped at age 18, let me tell you, I did not fight. You want to know why? Because when someone is doing that to you, you don't know HOW you are naturally going to react. At my age now, yeah I would fight but as a naive lds tbm 18 year old, no, I froze, I was not in control of my body at all, in fact I was floating on the ceiling watching the whole thing happen from above. And when he ran out the first thing I did was shower and scrub, until the water ran cold. I didn't tell a soul, because I had been taught that after that I was damaged goods, dirty, not worthy to do anything or be with anyone decent. To tell me I should want to rather be dead than to live with the knowledge I did not fight is the most ASININE, STUPID, MISOGYNISTIC, HURTFUL MOST ridiculous thing anyone could ever say to someone who has been sexually assaulted. It's BS! I hate that quote.

About the time that book came out I was in high school.

I was having sex with my boyfriend. We had a lesson in yw about this topic. I wanted to tell all the girls that what was said was a crock of shit. It wasn't true. I wasn't better to be dead than to have sex.

I knew there were girls in the room that had been sexually assaulted. I felt so sorry for them. It is a huge lie that they tell to all of the mormon women. One more scar the church added to their souls. I hate the church for allowing such sick garbage to be taught. They are STILL teaching it! They still print that book. Bishops are still handing it out.

So sorry to hear all the horror stories. How unbeleivable painful!

I have one word for this quote B U L L S *% T!!!!!!!!!!

It has caused more pain to victims of sexual abuse in tscc than anthing else. I truly spit, everytime I hear it!!

I remember my mother teaching my sisters this:

"If someone wants to rape you and holds a knife to your throat, saying 'Submit, or I'll kill you.", tell them 'Kill'".

What a sick thing to teach your kids.

That book is one of the most sickening things ever written as no matter what a woman does, the fault is all on the rapist. I think it's likely that many of those Mormon women who take antidepressants are on them because they were forced to read that book, and many others ended up committing suicide after a rape because this sick person wrote that they're better off dead. I like to think that there's a special spot in hell for Kimball because he wrote this piece of crap.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2013 09:49PM by adoylelb.

I never even connected that book with my guilt at being a survivor of repeated sexual abuse. I know when I did things naughty I was forced (it felt like that) to read it in conjunction with all the other crap. I read that book so many times.


SOOOOOOO glad I didn't raise kids in the church and have them have to read that bullshit!!!

When I was in fourth (fifth?) grade I was walking to school and some pervert was sitting in his car waiting for me to walk by so he could masturbate, making sure I saw.

It was the most terrifying thing. My friends house was a couple houses down so I took off running as fast as I could. Yet, I maintained the presence of mind, as his car sped away, to get the first two numbers of his license plate.

Did my dad envelope me in his arms saying he was glad I was safe? Did he tell me good job, you thought to run and get two numbers of the license plate?

Nope. My dad looked at me with his beet red angry face and yelled "why didn't you get the license plate number!" I remember crying inside thinking, "but I did, I got two and I had to get away so I could not get more."

When I was in 11th grade and a boy cornered me in the sports equipment storage shed I froze. He "only" rubbed my body over my clothes despite my protests. I immediately decided to never tell my parents. Why, so I could not get in trouble for reacting the way I was suppose to.

I just don't understand how a church can teach a female she is of less importance than a male, tell her she must submit to males 12 and over then expect her to fight one to the death in a situation she would never anticipated to happen. It is a mind fuck.

I hate you Mormonism! You made it impossible for me to have a relationship with my family.

My spouse was sexually assaulted at a young age by her boyfriend. Her dad was bishop at the time and he responded in effect, "none of your brothers or sisters have done anything like this"

When she first told me, in my pride as a priesthood holder who hadn't done anything with women before marriage, to my everlasting shame I actually said, "was it really just him?"

Even now I feel intense regret/guilt about that conversation. And anger towards her dad, the high and mighty bishop.

I've since learned that reacting that way was the worst possible thing to do for her healing. Uninvolved parties are not the ones who define Rape/Assault.

If a friend comes to us telling us something like this happened, we should NEVER ask questions to imply blame or question the survivors actions*. We need to support and listen. Never judge.

I hate SWK's quote. These people have already gone through hell, why prolong it by making them think that it was in any way their fault by not "fighting to the death".


*(http://www.care.uci.edu/general/Sexual-Assault---How-to-Support.aspx)

Any religion that does not treat women as equal to men cannot possibly be true. Any religion that does not prosecute abuse to the full extent of the law must be utterly false.
Kimball's quote is barbaric and reason enough to ignore anything else he says.

Tonic immobility. Some think it's real, some don't. As a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, I always felt my whole body go cold, my heart rate drop, heard a rush of white noise and then, gone.

There is no way for me to even move when it hits.
People who haven't been raped are lucky to not know the feeling.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2013 11:34PM by foxystoner.