Hello all ex-Mormons! I am fascinated with religion and the effects that it has on people psychologically and socially (psychology and sociology by themselves as well). Because I study about religions extensively, you can be assured that I'm a nevermo for time and all eternity :)

I have a question related to a central aspect of Mormonism. This is especially for those people who were one of those "unshakeable testimony" TBMs in the past, but anyone is welcome to answer. What I want to know is--what is really going on with Mormons when they are so confident that the Church IS true? I once talked with a missionary who was trying to demonstrate to me that I needed to pray and receive verification--no other way. He was saying that it was through this verification that he was sure the Church was true and nothing could change his mind.

Thanks if you can help me out on this! I might have more questions in the future.

Lyndon Lamborn in Standing for Something and Steven Hassan in Combatting Cult Mind Control give pretty good info on this. Some of the reasons are:
1. Humans instinctually like to agree with the particular group/tribe/family they belong to, for survival reasons
2. Humans like to believe they are right about their important beliefs (confirmation bias), as to change them could require changing their whole world view, which takes up a lot of brainpower to do, distracting them from the important task of surviving in a dangerous world.
3.Cults program members with fear tactics about leaving the group, so that if they even consider leaving, horrible things might happen to them, or at least weaken their status in their family or community.
4. Humans like to believe their authority figures (leaders) are telling them the truth. If they are not, it makes the world seem much more dangerous and eats away at their feelings of security.
5. The more harmful cults emotionally and/or physically abuse their members, sometimes to the point of causing some disassociation, so their dominant personality is not in communication with the other parts of them which hold the doubts. So they believe they have no doubts, because their doubts are buried inside an alternate ego. The worse they have been abused, the harder it is for them to get in touch with their split-off parts.

Yep, mormons are taught that warm fuzzy feeling means something is true and that if you don't feel them when they think you should it's because something is wrong with you, not their beliefs.

With all your studies I'm sure you know way more than I could tell you about the power of the brain to convince itself of things and many mormons are born into it and indoctrinated as young children and honestly see NO way it could ever be false. They are also emotionally manipulated that their family is on the line with their beliefs about eternal familes.

It doesn't help the mormon church is very very into burying things that seem negative about it's past, teaching the members to explain uncomfortable things away, and vilifying individual objective research of any material outside of what the mormon church has published. This highly controls what the members read or are willing to listen to from others. If it goes against the mormons it must just be some meany being mean. They don't let the members be critical of the church or they are sinning so many mormons don't think critically for themselves about things regarding their religion even if they will in other portions of their life.

I've always said it's the same reason people KNOW they are in love. It's all about the feelings and in this case, the feelings are masterfully manipulated by the Mormons. They are told certain feelings are confirmation that Mormonism is true. Then, Mormonism goes to all sorts of lengths to stimulate those feelings in people. Then they say "Well, that proves Mormonism is true."

Also, don't forget, most Mormons don't know all that much about Mormonism. They don't have any reason to think their leaders are lying to them and the PR by Mormons, for Mormons is pretty good. Their testimony isn't that the church is true but that they feel good believing the church is true. They just don't know the difference.

Mormons are taught from the time they can talk to say they know the church is true. It becomes a mantra they say without even thinking about it. If you say something enough, you begin to believe it and accept it as truth.

I understand for the people who grew up in Mormonism there's indoctrination from an early age, but what goes on with those people who convert?

When I was a missionary I was taught that there are three conversions:

1) Spiritual: You feel the warm fuzzies when you pray or hear about something, confirming that what you are hearing is true.
2) Mental: What you are reading/hearing makes sense and is appealing to you.
3) Social: You like the people who believe this stuff, and feel they like you. You want to be around them.

People start with one, and are best retained when they have all three.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2013 11:32PM by squeebee.

Many who converted to mormonism did so as they were in or coming out of a difficult period in their life (divorce, loss of a child, health issues, etc..). The way the missionaries are trained to present mormonism, it appeals to prospective converts because the doctrine provides definitive answers and comfort, from both a theological and social perspective (or at least it seems so on the surface). Many of the conversion stories I've heard were about how missionaries would find someone in their "desperate hour of need".
Also, one of the most effective tools used in conversion is a so-called "domino-effect" of belief, starting with the book of mormon. Missionaries will ask you to read and pray to get an answer to whether or not the BoM is true. If you feel the spirit ("warm fuzzies") and accept the BoM, then the next "logical" conclusion is that Joseph Smith must be a prophet of God, and thereby restored God's church on the earth once more, with the correct authority of the priesthood. Based on the good feelings you've had about a book, you are hooked into believing the whole she-bang. It may seemingly appeal to logic (some converts like this aspect: it makes sense), but is entirely feelings-based.

Personally I'm a little confused with the thread on the main page that "the church is not a social club" because that was (IMO) the main attractor of the LDS church.

You get lonely people, or people with marital issues, or whatever issues, and they find that going out and doing things together, or having family home evening, actually helps your family feel closer.

It's always nice to belong to something.

Group hysteria. Too bad you couldn't witness first-hand, the group of Mormon high-school girls around a testimony campfire. Yikes!

I would feel the "warm fuzzies" in groups. I felt a profound connection with The Creator many times--in a pristine forest at dawn, seeing a rainbow over the ocean, galloping across a meadow ahead of a storm, and even reading a beautiful poem. (But, never, while reading the BOM or any Mormon scriptures, nor listening to Conference talks, and least of all listening to the MoTab.) The Mormons lay claim to these natural feelings of life euphoria, and translate it for you: All this means the church is true. No, the connection doesn't have to make sense.

Fasting is encouraged by Mormons. Once I fasted for 3 days, to lose weight. I hallucinated. I was sure there was a "presence" of someone else in the room with me. Have you ever "prayed all day and long into the night"? I did, and I was sleep-deprived, which makes it impossible to think clearly. This is not a good state in which to make major decisions, such as whom to marry. Being sleep deprived is an ideal state in which to be brainwashed! When my parents said they were "impressed" that I should marry the returned missionary I had known only a few months, I agreed. He was the most assertive and competitive of all my boyfriends, and he wore me down. Then, he beat me.

All the "prayer states" of fasting, mass hysteria, going by feelings and not logic, ignoring the facts, giving in to "the spirit" and being easily led by others--lead to weakness. A Mormon testimony is based on submission and weakness. Mormons label this as "humility" or "being as a little child."

In the Hare Krishna faith, it is understood that people will accept, and feel that God confirms (if they do believe in Him), whatever path they are spiritually ready for at a particular time. Factors such as a perceived need to feel like one has the answer and believe that one has the truth NOW, rather than taking the time and effort to search it out; vulnerability to being enchanted by the words of others, giving in to peer pressure, or not saying "no" to others; a desire for secured salvation, if one believes in it, that appears to be given by the spiritual path of choice; and a desire to engage in transgressions of ethical/moral, legal, social, or natural laws that are accepted by the chosen spiritual path are amongst the factors that would make one "spiritually ready" for a particular path. When spiritual growth happens, if that person follows a path that is lacking in truth, then that person may become "spiritually ready" for a path of higher truth. /but they have to really BE spiritually ready to actually accept it.

If mormonism is exhibit A for brainwashing, hare krisna is definately exhibit B.

Control diet
Control sex
Sleep deprivation
Chanting
Milk before meat
Money is bad for individuals so give half to the church
Isolate yourself from society

See Steve Hassan's cult website.

This is good info from an ex-hare krishna: http://harekrishnamadness.wordpress.com/2012/03/25/oh-well-brainwashing-has-started/

But i'm sure those are all "anti-krishna lies" right HHK?

Speaking AS a Hare Krishna:

Vegetarianism is promoted by religious (and many non-religious) groups for ethical reasons. That's hardly a 'cultish' exhibition of diet control. But you're free to come to the temple and worship even if you're not vegetarian. Same applies to the ideologies of abstaining from sex outside of marriage or avoiding illicit drugs. Many people do participate even if they don't follow these principles. Those who are initiated do try to keep higher standards, but there's no pressure to be initiated, just as there's no obligation in many faiths to be a priest. It's just a higher standard to which some devotees prefer to keep. They definitely don't believe in a permanent bar on the Kingdom of God for someone who has eaten meat, slept around, taken cocaine, or gambled all their money away.

We definitely DON'T require giving half (or anything, for that matter) to the temple. One great devotee did that, hundreds of years ago, but you're absolutely not obligated to do that, or even near that much. You give whatever you feel inspired to and don't have to give when you don't feel like doing so. As a student when I wanted to give donations, repeatedly I had my donations rejected or given back to me (even straight from the offering plate, in front of a bunch of people once) and chastised that as someone with little money, now is NOT the time to give. But the rich aren't obligated to give either. Nor are you obligated to give any service. You give whatever you want.

Plenty of people don't give a cent, don't do any service, and just walk in to enjoy the program - or even just the food. That's a routine occurrence, especially in college towns (Steve Jobs famously told that he used to do this back in college) and big cities. We don't mind at all.

And we definitely don't believe in isolation. Regrettably, that did happen in a few "experimental" groups (particularly in rural areas), but it was never in our scriptures, didn't work so well, and is universally acknowledged to be a terrible mistake. It was never mandatory, and there always were even in those days many Hare Krishna communities that had their connection with society, particularly in the urban areas.

INTEGRATION with society is a very strong focus of today - and not just to "convert" people, as with some religious groups, but to really be productive members and good leaders of society. Plenty of high level people (including an executive of American Express, a former investment banker at Citibank, and several MDs who graduated from prestigious medical schools) attend my local temple, right alongside schoolteachers and many others in more humble professions. Even in the countryside farms and rural areas they tend to be pretty active in their local communities. Sure, there are full time clergy - as with any other faith - but even they are much more a part of society than they once were.

Chanting japa is just like the Catholic rosary. In fact, it is called the Vedic or Hindu rosary. It's a form of prayer and meditation - nothing wrong with that.

Sleep deprivation is definitely not okay. The Bhagavad Gita (As It Is translation) says: "There is no possibility of one's becoming a yogī, O Arjuna, if one eats too much or eats too little, sleeps too much or does not sleep enough." (In this context, "yogi" in the Sanskrit refers to a spiritual seeker.) Not that people haven't made that mistake - as they have in many other communities, for even non-religious reasons (such as pulling an all-nighter to study for an exam) - but by the religious teachings, it's not acceptable.

And there have been people in practically every (and no) faith that have made the terrible mistake of treating other people worse than them, or placing them in a worse position. That is always wrong - but that's definitely not the fault of their religion, when it preaches that all people are spirit souls, equal in the eyes of God. That's the fault of the people not following their own religious teachings.

I can't speak for break-away communities that engaged in "cultish" practices, or for those who otherwise deviated from the actual teachings of the faith. But the Hare Krishna faith - as you can see for yourself is quite different, especially if you ever saw the Hare Krishna devotees practicing their faith today.

Happy Hare Krishna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Chanting japa is just like the Catholic rosary. In
> fact, it is called the Vedic or Hindu rosary.
> It's a form of prayer and meditation - nothing
> wrong with that.
>





I lived in the eastern experience and was well aware of literally being programmed into it. This was after I left mormonism but I had a keen interest in belief systems and during research felt the unmistakable programming effect luring me in. I eventually went to India to get into it to see where this program originated and to get a better handle on how to break it within me; and to analyze it first hand. I wasn't converted to it, but was intrigued and felt the pull more and more with each passing year. It's a long story and a very strange one.

I recognize japa (chanting mantra) as a form of locking the brain into a program and also of generating specific energy to keep creation going. Typical Westerners do not understand the nature of words and/or emotion and their frequency to create and its effect. Those who have a sense of it have turned it into a freak show acquisition game.
Make NO mistake, chanting/japa is a definite program to lock you in. It has a lulling hypnotic effect.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2013 02:12PM by joan.

Your response sounded very TMB/Cultist to me. Am I feeding a troll?

I was hypnotized in a high school assembly. I was fully aware the entire time and felt that at anytime I could have just walked off the stage and tell everyone that it was a hoax.

But the peer pressure and the wanting to be hypnotized is what kept me up there. Everyone in the audience thought that I was under a deep spell, but in reality I was fully conscience and at some level faking it. So was everyone else. Even so I just couldn't walk off the stage.

My experience as a BIC Mormon is very similar, luckily I was finally able to walk off the stage after years of faking it. But most aren't so lucky, and are still on stage faking it on some level.

All the world's indeed a stage
And we are merely players
Performers and portrayers
Each another's audience
Outside the gilded cage

Props for the Rush reference.

I'm not sure if this was mentioned already, but testimony meetings are the monthly holy grail for narcissism. Combined with hunger pains from fasting and it's a veritable tournament of the tears. I use the word 'tournament' because sometimes it seems like people are competing for the most emotional inducing testimony of the day.

It promotes club membership mentality and generates emotion to correspond with the testimony...which is that the church is the restored info from Christ, etc, etc.

Those who are pre-disposed to excessive narcissism more easily latch onto it's corresponding hooks and bait perhaps they have a better chance of identifying it and getting clarity on what's going on.

For those who have a personality which may be a breeding ground for narcissism the we-are-elect and one-true-church on the face of the earth makes the person feel special. Everybody wants to feel special; like their getting it right and that can feed more narcissism.

For those who aren't as predisposed to narcissism they are advised to keep bearing their testimony of wonderment and specialness until they sufficiently ''feel'' it inside.

I never got the burning in the bosom testimony feeling. I was advised to bear my testimony often, whenever I could, and it would grow. I think other posters explained how that particular approach is a program brainwashing technique and makes a person mentally believe it to conform and be 'righteous'.

If a person has a disposition to be obedient and do what their told they may not be bearing their testimony out of narcissism but out of fear and hope of righteousness. In which case it may be easier for them to identify the psychological programming techniques and untangle themselves from it. The fair board apologists are some of the most narcissistic people around and will not renounce their testimony due to their narcissistic attachment and ego nature that they don't want to be wrong. Those type of apologists are hard-core and once you recognize the different personality roots you begin to see how to approach them or if they can be approached at all.

I have a few friends who are devotees of Shiva the India god. Their narcissism is the same as the mormon testimonial type of thing, and they attach to the clothing and types of rituals which feeds the specialness often associated with narcissist personalities.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2013 02:14PM by joan.

The Mormons remind me of the Pentecostals in this regard: crying when they get religiously excited. I have NEVER cried over something religious. I don't get this practice. I can't force myself to cry, I have to have something to cry about.

It's the Bill Murray, my dog is dead method.

When I needed to cry in church I thought of Jesus Christ on the Cross dying for me. I believed it. It's was a very emotional idea for me. I don't believe it anymore, so my spirit is gone, I cry for other reasons, but nobody died on a cross for me, so it doesn't have the same emotion anymore.