One time in Seminary we were having a deep and spiritual lesson, girls were all weepy and some of us guys weren't far behind and it was very quiet as the teacher spoke. Somebody farted obviously by accident and the class broke out in the giggles, and the mood was broken.

In church and in leadership and teacher training we heard all the time about how the mood has to be set in order for the spirit to work in our teaching environment- cottage meetings should only be held in clean and well kept homes, and only certain types of music allow the spirit to be present.

Many times I have heard leaders say that the spirit has fled because of this outburst or that disordered lesson, or cluttered homes of faithful and spiritual members.

If the Holy Ghost according to mormon thought is so fragile and skittish that he will flee and leave the class to the wiles of the adversary when a kid embarrasses themselves to death in a seminary class, how can we possibly know how or if to trust it with our quest for salvation?

To me, it seems that the major fallacy of the church changing the Holy Ghost as the mind and will of God to a third disembodied personage who testifies of truth. He no longer represents the Lord in all of its driving force and bravery, but to simply reassure us if the mood is right that we should follow what we are being told.

Instead of the champion of human nobility, and troublemaker for institutions gone wrong, the Spirit in mormonism is more like the second councilor in the bishopric whose duty is merely to carry out orders from the Bishop and to sit in on properly ordered classes only so long as everyone behaves.

So if somebody farts in class and the mood is broken, either the LDS version of the Holy Ghost has fled in terror or the carefully crafted experience has been disrupted, but the mind and will of God should remain unshaken.

As Packer has said, the difference between and emotion and the witness of the spirit is so close as to sometimes be difficult to differentiate. And that is true- if you lose the spirit over a fart, it was only emotion. If true, then it is safe to assume that the church thrives on the blurring between emotion and spirit and between the feeling of belonging and the true confirmation of the spirit. Perhaps it is wise to question not only church doctrines and history, but to carefully evaluate spiritual experiences to be sure your emotions aren't being manipulated in a controlled environment

Wow, this is a great post!!

In addition, does it follow then that if you are in a loud or chaotic situation (by no fault of your own), you can't count on the HG for help? Like if your baby is screaming and you can't figure out what is wrong so you pray for guidance - the HG is like "no way man, that baby is screaming and I can't handle it, I'm outta here!! Gotta go help some quiet dude find his keys...."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2013 11:53AM by mobegone.

Yes, like he leaves when we are in need of it the most.
And by the way, it is a great post!

I like the Buddhist equivalent of the Holy Spirit---mindfulness. It is not dependent on outer circumstances, whatsoever, but resides within ourselves. Therefore, we can be in the worst of circumstances, war for example or even an instance if road rage by someone, and still be in a place of peace. Historical examples of this include non-Buddhist examples as well such as Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. who had the ability to experience love for his enemies even as they were cursing him. He, of course realized that they were more in bondage than he was.

A great book that compares the concept of mindfulness with the Holy Spirit is Living Buddha, Living Christ by Buddhist monk and activist Thich Nhat Hanh.

He was in that kid's body, touching his heart.

The Spirit was rudely ejected.

That'll show that kid about drinking too much OJ in the morning.

And who is the HG and why is he condemned to be a personage of spirit? What difference would it make if he did have a physical body? How is he different to the light of Christ? Why is it so difficult to determine his influence as opposed to your own feelings? Why is he generally doing such an appalling job of preparing people to receive the gospel (especially those in first world countries that are well educated)?

These and other questions are easily answered the moment you look behind the curtain.

The Hare Krishna equivalent of the Holy Ghost (by function) is the Paramatma (literally meaning "Supersoul"), who is the Lord within the heart. He never leaves us, under any circumstances. And He is always available - but we are not "forced" to listen to Him or to be inspired. That must happen by choice. To set the "mood" may help us to pay attention, but it isn't explicitly required.

"if you lose the spirit over a fart, it was only emotion"

This is the greatest line I have ever read on this board. Will this appear in the Pearl of Great Price soon?

+1

Another super topic.

So if you fart on a spirit they will leave? If you fart on an unholy spirit it may stay?

I can forget the holy angel hand shake and remember to fart instead. I like evil spirits I guess.

So we know now from the evidence that JS did not fart when he talked to Nephi/Moroni in his bedroom.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2013 03:52PM by oldklunker.

Perhaps Satan has dominion over the seas- and the bowels!

Okay, this may be a little off topic.

When my sister was little she was in the backyard alone. She heard a fart but looking around saw that no one was there. She became terrified realizing she must indeed have heard Satan fart. (no other explanation) She immediately came into the house to escape him.

My point is maybe Satan hangs around the one twoo church farting to break the mood and scare the Holy Ghost away.

I was thinking the same thing...

Maybe....just maybe.... HG was the one who actually farted.

Point made that day.

Obviously the Holy Ghost has a delicate sense of smell.

You can not trust the MORmON holy ghost, just like you can not trust MORmON Jesus.

My question is, if the Holy Ghost is so fragile, then what good is he? If he runs away at the first sign of trouble, then how is he supposed to help you when you are in trouble? If a fart scares him away, then how is he going to handle things for the teen being bullied, a parent whose child was just in a car crash, or soldier walking in an ambush? It's simple, he couldn't, even if he was real.

A typical analogy that I've heard over and over is that the HG is like a companion on a sled. As long as you take the correct path (which is marked) you'll have him with you but if you decide to go the wrong way he'll bail out and leave you on your own, until you come back to the right path. That makes sense in that you can't expect the spirit to remain if you are drunk in a porn shop, or embezzling your employer.

In the case of the Seminary class, that event often came to mind when training meetings would focus on inviting the "spirit" into our teaching situations, whether they be homes or classes at the church. That so-called spirit could only be present and do its work if all of the conditions were right.

Let's put that in sales trainee terms- the customer is more likely to buy if you can set the atmosphere and reach an emotional connection while presenting the product.

I totally agree that the HG is ineffectual if it can't be with you during times of crisis and chaos, real or not. You might as well rely on your wits and lady luck to pull you through.

This is one thing that always bothered me on my mission. We were taught that we will "scare away" the spirit if there's any kind of mood change or distractions while were teaching. It seemed silly to me. Why would a GOD act like a timid, delicate, little "scaredy cat?" If a person is in the middle of probably the most important discussion of their life and they are being overpowered by power of God why would something as superficial as a kid screaming in the background or the tv being on in the other room "chase" him away?

Clearly the Mormon holy ghost is just our mood and emotions.

Because he is a Mormon god, which is a religion for scared people who are afraid of little things, like a changing world, or receiving an invite to a gay marriage (the horrors). Now, if you want a God who will be with you through thick or thin, get a Norse one. Those guys are not scared of anything. I mean, you almost have to go into a strip club occasionally, if you want to keep the spirit of Thor from getting bored and bailing on you.

Only in tscc... rest of Christendom it's known as the Comforter.

>Instead of the champion of human nobility, and troublemaker for institutions gone wrong, the Spirit in mormonism is more like the second councilor in the bishopric whose duty is merely to carry out orders from the Bishop and to sit in on properly ordered classes only so long as everyone behaves.

Kind of deviates from the Comforter, ain't it?

Smells like Teen Spirit(tm).

When you are trying to get people to feel all emotional, trying to instill quiet peaceful moods...?

If somebody farts, you lose those peaceful emotions.

But like I say, I'm sure it's just a coincidence.

I'd like to bare my testimony that I know the Holy Ghost is a spineless flake.

The holy ghost is the ultimate borderline personality manipulator.
One moment he's in love with you, the next, he's a catty emotional bitch. It all comes down to whether you're doing whatever he wants. Do the right thing, you're the golden child. Do the wrong thing, you have hurt the holy ghost and made him cry.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2013 08:11AM by Jesus Smith.

So true..

This reminds me of family prayer times when I was growing up.

My parents still own the round coffee table around which we kids were to assemble for prayer before bedtime. My ex-mo dad tolerated the practice out of respect for my TBM mom but didn't participate.

I can't count the number of times that something happened (including unintentional farting or tummy-growls) during prayer that resulted in most of my siblings making desperate attempts to cover up our giggle fits. My mom never punished us for giggling during prayer, but it did exasperate her that we weren't more "reverent".

The holy ghost is apparently offended by the good-natured laughter of children having a little harmless fun.

In the years since I've witnessed numerous examples of funny things happen in the middle of prayers offered by people from other denominations and it's usually worked into the prayer in some kind or lighthearted way that acknowledges how enjoyable it is when people laugh together.

My take on the holy spirit of other denoms is basically that he makes it a point to go slumming in all the areas the ghost is afraid of or in situations where he flees. If yer gonna fish, might as well go where the fish are.

Reminds me of the new testament verses (forget which ones) when someone gets all uptight that Jesus is hanging out with the tax collectors and 'sinners' (those who were ritually unclean) - and responds that the person who is well has no need of a physician, etc.

So the mormon ghost apparently is kind of like a doctor hovering around the people who are the picture of health, rather than at the bedside of someone who is really sick and needs them. Sounds pretty useless to me...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2013 09:18AM by frogdogs.