Good Afternoon fellow exmos,
I spend a good bit of time with a local bishop. He knows where I stand and often asks me about it. Today I told him that Joseph Smith married women that were already married. He said he didn't know about that and he'd have to see proof. Later, we were talking about how Mormons believe that "faith without works is dead" and how other religions believe you are saved by grace alone. I can't remember where some of the scriptures pertaining to that in the bible are. Does anyone know? Also, I see all the stuff on FAIR about polyandry, but where does this info come from? Is it accounts from others? Where can I find these accounts?
I'm trying really hard not to be pushy about information and only answer what he asks. It's interesting stuff though and I enjoy the conversations so far. At the end of today's chat he said something along the lines of, "Let's just not feel like someone has to win"
I know this is dangerous ground. I know he might turn on me with the testimony at any time but I've been waiting for this chance for a long time now.

Re grace-not-works: It seems more a matter of interpretation than a clearcut scriptural basis for this belief. Otherwise, all the Christian-based faiths would agree on it and they don't. Which comes first, which one or two or more apply, what do we have to do or not do - these are all questions that different groups respond to in their own way, according to their own understanding. The bottom line I've found after years of looking is that there is a lot of room for latitude and most things are not completely clear when it comes to figuring out what the scriptures say and mean. So it comes down to individual or group interpretation. For instance, there isn't one statement you can make about "Christians" that applies to every denomination. Some say that salvation is by grace alone and some say works must come into it. I have always favoured the middle-ground approach (what a shock when it comes to me! - NOT) and so I choose the interpretation that faith saves and then saving faith includes works (i.e., you naturally do good works because you believe and are saved - by your belief, not your works). Except I don't think in terms of people being "saved" or not saved. But that's another story.

Here are a few scriptures on the matter - again, all of them open to interpretation in my experience. Good luck with your explorations and discussions with the bishop!


Ephesians 2:8-9 - "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith...not by works...". (NIV)

1 John 4:19 - "We love him, because he first loved us."

John 3:16: - "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (NIV)


"...salvation is by grace through faith."
http://carm.org/grace-or-works


Scripture alone.
Faith alone.
Christ alone.
Grace alone.
Glory to God alone.
(Protestantism)


"... in Ephesians, after the Apostle Paul declares that salvation is by grace alone in verses 8-9, he says in the next verse that, "We are [God's] workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."Good works do not lead to salvation, but rather salvation leads to good works.When we are saved by grace, we are made new in Christ and good works will follow.But these are never performed as an effort to gain salvation.They are always the fruit of salvation that is given freely to us in Christ."

http://www.clsnet.org/page.aspx?pid=608



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2013 05:17PM by Nightingale.

Thanks for the information. This is a learning experience for me. I have very little experience with religion outside of Mormonism.

But then James 2:18-26 goes into a discourse on Faith without works. (I had it memorized on my mission)

verse 20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

verse 26: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

In the end, trying to "prove" anything from the bible is a chess game where each point can be counter matched by another point.

If the Bish wants to know why you believe what you believe, then fine. But if he wants to match you point for point, it's just a waste of time for both of you.

These are about faith - not about salvation. No mention of salvation at all in these scriptures.

This is the verse he brought up.

Proof that Joseph practiced Polyandry? Show him this video on your tablet of Elder Marlin K. Jensen confirming it at the Swedish Fireside.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of7HNe3cbuo&list=PLTNHsvgVQ9Xqlgj8I2T6UWlXTzNCPdO1L&index=1



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2013 04:32PM by nlocnil.

Thank you!!!!

Actually the solas, Grace alone, Faith alone, Scripture alone, Christ alone, are common to all of the Reformation era Protestant denominations.

A different translation (ESV) of Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

If grace is the undeserved love of God and we in turn love Him, then you get to John 21:15-17
Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.

Love, service, altruism in this context are the 'works' of mutual love. It works for me.

Thanks for the correction. I have edited my post in that regard. I *knew* I should have checked that reference! I thought I saw "Calvinism" referred to after that paragraph but then couldn't find the source again to double-check. I hate it when I do that.

I understand the concept of faith/works in EV circles but it took me a long time, having been a JW, then a Mormon, with a sprinkling of BAC'ism in between and around each of those works-based faiths.

It works for me too. It feels like good solid common ground on which to stand and to be welcoming of all other comers.

It's preaching "he who believes in me is saved" and then demanding works that confuses me. The more add-ons, the more inconsistencies occur.

I studied this alot a while ago and made lots of notes. I copied a bit of those notes here. Mormons seem to rely on the James passage, but there are countless more statements in the new testament that say it is only faith that is needed, not any works. Read through Romans and Hebrews and highlight all the times it's said, and it's tons. Reading again the new testament without trying to fit it into mormon doctrine was one of the best testimony-destroyers.

http://www.clarityministries.org/media/pdfs/faith_without_works.pdf
--James was talking to church brethren who had already been saved through faith, but talking asking the "what profiteth" (or benefits you and others) if your faith is dead (e.g. like a dead car battery). True faith should create good works, not that works save you. Also, works coming from faith is how other people can tell that you have faith (justified to other people), although you are justified before God without needing the works.

Ephesians 2:8, 9: For by grace you have been
saved through faith, and that [being saved] not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Titus 3:5: Not by works of righteousness which
we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us,
through the washing of regeneration [new birth] and
renewing of the Holy Spirit.

II Timothy 1:9: [God] who has saved us and
called us with a holy calling, not according to our
works, but according to His own purpose and grace
which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Romans 4:5: But to him who does not work
but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith
is accounted for righteousness.

Romans 11:6: And if [salvation is] by grace,
then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no
longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace;
otherwise work is no longer work.

See how Catholics proclaim we are saved:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)

By our words (Matt 12:37)

By enduring to the end (Matt.24:13)

You shouldn't pick and choose a verse here or there.

"You shouldn't pick and choose a verse here or there."

I agree with this.

But, speaking for myself, I wasn't intending to present an exhaustive treatise on the question due to my own time limitations. Of course, there is a lot more than a single verse of scripture here or there that a Christian scripture study takes into consideration when learning and understanding the teachings of a particular denomination.

Too, I second the comment above that going back and forth on this with the bishop is fruitless, unless you both really want to understand the other's point of view,and you have unlimited time. I found it very difficult to come to understand the EV POV after having been a JW for 7 yrs. Try and wrap your head around the doctrine of the Trinity if you've learned from the get-go that there are three separate beings.

Oh wait. Ex-Mormons know what that's like, having been taught themselves that the doctrine of the Trinity is not correct.

I have spent a lot of time wondering why God did not simply make the scriptures more definite on the major points and finally I concluded that he must think that anything goes! (Kinda laughing at myself but not really...).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2013 06:04PM by Nightingale.

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "You shouldn't pick and choose a verse here or
> there."
>
> I agree with this.
>

>
> Too, I second the comment above that going back
> and forth on this with the bishop is fruitless,
> unless you both really want to understand the
> other's point of view,and you have unlimited time.
> I found it very difficult to come to understand
> the EV POV after having been a JW for 7 yrs. Try
> and wrap your head around the doctrine of the
> Trinity if you've learned from the get-go that
> there are three separate beings.
>
> Oh wait. Ex-Mormons know what that's like, having
> been taught themselves that the doctrine of the
> Trinity is not correct.
>
> I have spent a lot of time wondering why God did
> not simply make the scriptures more definite on
> the major points and finally I concluded that he
> must think that anything goes! (Kinda laughing at
> myself but not really...).

The BOM used to be even more Trinitarian than it is today. The Mormon church made some changes to the 1830 edition of the BOM to make it less Trinitarian. For example:

1 Nephi 13:40
Original text: the lamb of God is the Eternal Father
Later editions: the lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father

1 Nephi 11:21
Original text: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father
Later editions: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father

1 Nephi 11:32
Original text: yea, the Everlasting God was judged of the world
Later editions: yea, the Son of the Everlasting God was judged of the world

How do Mormons reconcile this with three separate people?

....But you must keep in mind that in Mormonism, the goal is NOT salvation.....but rather EXALTATION. That is a whole different ballgame, and requires works, and many more works....

Exactly, the free gift is getting resurrected and dropped into the Telestial Kingdom, which by itself seems pretty great as it is. The works come into advancing past that.

JS had to take God out of the regular free heaven and add another super-level for the perfect mos who get to have lotsa sex with many women. Not to mention they get god super powers too. Yep. . sounds like a male fantasy to me.

Good point!

You Grace conversation is going to lead to a dead-end. Mormonism has developed good excuses for theological problems when you try to argue it from a Bible perspective.

Keep on the Mormon history stuff. You are much more likely to shake his testimony with this.

Please guide him to FAIR. This is the church funded but not endorsed historical society. They will confirm that he practiced polyandry (marrying married women) and give him a really lame excuse for why he did it.

I did bring up FAIR and also explained to him what an apologist is. One of the problems I see coming up is that FAIR says they are not actually affiliated with the church on their web site.

I know, but point out that they are all on the payroll for the church (church education employees). These are faithful members that give faithful answers to the questions.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Maybe you can look up the sources yourself. If you can point to a source coming from a very reputable source, a court case, or a good guy (you might have a hard time knowing who's good since you aren't a mormon). Maybe he will listen.

You can also encourage him to look it up in the church's family search database. It's managed by members so it's not very official either. He'll trust that it's a friendly source, but he might not trust the accuracy of it. Have him look up ZINA HUNTINGTON JACOBS. This is one of the women that he married after sending her husband on a mission for the church. She also later married Brigham Young and he also sent her husband on another mission.

Yes it definitely is a fundamental different. Along with the idea that God is eternal, there are no other Gods, aka we won't become one. There is also no eternal marriage.

These can be clearly understood from the Bible. They are real and important differences. Since I'm an atheist I just see each idea equally as silly as the other. I'd keep shooting for the church history stuff. If he ever researches something he'll be on the path out of the church.

Just keep repeat the history is clear Joesph Smith married other men's wives. He married a 14 yr old girl when he was 37. He married many teenagers using the promise of exaltation or threat of damnation. He did practice treasure seeking before he started the church, by using peep stones. He used a peep stone in his hat to translate the book of mormon. He did not use the book to tranlate it with contradicts a church commissioned painting that most members have at least seen. The witnesses were related to Joesph Smith or owned him money. Joesph Smith reveal polygamy after Oliver Cowdery accused him of having an affair. The Book of Mormon specifically states that David and Solomon were sinful for practicing polygamy.

And there you go--a bishop that says he didn't know about JS marrying women already married. Since the Mattsson NYT's article, there has been so many comments on FB and the NYT website chiding Mattsson for not knowing because of course all Mormons know this.

It's because they didn't even go into detail in the NYT article they just said polygamy. Everyone knows about polygamy. Nobody knows the details.

Exactly. Everyone knows about polygamy but not the polyandry.

They don't know about the 14 year old either.

Mormons will say they are saved by grace through faith, and mean it, even though every Protestant will clearly see Mormonism teaches nothing of the sort. It's a matter of using much of the same vocabulary, but an entirely different dictionary. And I find having this discussion with Mormons is akin to pissing in the wind.

The BoM says, "we're saved by grace after all we can do." If they ever tell you that they're saved by faith alone, tell them that they don't know their BoM very well.

I've never heard a Mormon state they are saved by grace through faith. In fact, many have a shallow view of what grace actually means - limited comprehension of the hymn "Amazing Grace."

Well the "proof" is from early LDS historical records. He can confirm this by going to the damn library and looking this s**t up. Give him the following print out and it shows the names of the already married women on the right.

http://www.mormoninfographics.com/2012/09/the-many-wives-of-joseph-smith.html

Give him these names and tell him to go and research these names on his own. He will find out they were married concurrently with Smith and other men.

As I read the book of Romans (by the way, read an easy translation like CEV or NIV not King James) I realized how it's all about grace and nothing about works. The entire book of Romans really has great stuff about this. I sat down with the missionaries not too long ago and tried to discuss this with them. One of them actually told me, "Grace is something you have to earn." I read him the LDS Bible dictionary definition of grace. And while I disagree with the notion of "we're saved by grace after all we can do" and I disagreed with the Bible Dictionary statement, "However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient." I still was able to prove that he didn't have the first idea of what grace is.
The next time they showed up, they told me that grace is simply us being resurrected but it has nothing to do with being saved from sin.
I told the missionaries that this, in essence, makes our our own saviors, our own gods, and this is the main fundamental issue that Christians have with Mormons. It's so simple that Christ did it all, that people just can't accept that it's that easy.

Grace cannot be earned...if it could be earned it would be wages and not grace.

Let's hope he turns on you with his testimony, that can only mean he is scared and can't back up what he believes, like you can!

Quote: "He said he didn't know about that and he'd have to see proof."

Funny that they don't need proof to believe but they need proof when you contradict or bring a contrary element to that belief.

Nightingale said; salvation leads to good works.When we are saved by grace, we are made new in Christ and good works will follow. From a Christian view this is true.
these verses say this and mean this.
Ephesians 2:8-9 - "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith...not by works...". (NIV)

1 John 4:19 - "We love him, because he first loved us."

But these verses are looked at by the TSCC the wrong way.
James 2:18-26 goes into a discourse on Faith without works. (I had it memorized on my mission)

verse 20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

verse 26: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What this means is that if you have Crist in your heart and believe in him then by default you would be like him in his giving, loving (good-works) would become natural by you because of what you have become in Christ.

So if you do not do good-works and say you have faith and believe in him then how can you not do good works. It's not the works that are dead but ones faith, therefore good-works are not a part of you.

Someone once said to me, "Mormons think they can work their way into heaven" They have twisted the verses into working into Christ instead of working because of Christ.

I believe in a higher being, a creator and think that going to a better place my require some goodness, caring for others, respect, general being a good person and treating others accordingly. But doing good-works and still being an ahole, judgmental, thinking your better because your Mormon, or rich, or just a horrible person and then give to some missionary, fast offering, 10%, will get you into heaven your wrong.