I am 40 years old. I am excommunicated. I have not desire to go back, but when the stake secretary call me to come see the stake president I go in and I sit and listen to him for close to an hour.

I have told my parents that I don't want to come back to the church, but I still let them ask me in to talk about it. Same with the bishop. I say I don't want to come back because it just doesn't work for me and then when he asks if I will still come in sometimes to talk to him, I say OK.

My wife knows I'm atheist but still asks me to pray and have family home evening. At family home evening she always gives the lesson and never asks if I want to give a lesson on my own thoughts and beliefs. I think she tries to give me the message that I need in order to come back.

I love hiking and art, but can't maintain a set time to enjoy them without guilt and a nervous knot in my stomach.

As others have mentioned, the church primed us drop all boundaries on missions, in the temple washing and annointings, the sacrifice of all things, bizarre ceremonies, mind numbing long meetings, and a never ending list of things to do. Some emerge from all of this more intact than others. Maybe some of us took it all to seriously.

An example from the mission is giving up artistic interests. Art is so central to who I am that just giving up art alone was very demoralizing and depressing.

I remember a story about a very talented violinist who sold his violin to go on a mission. It is such a sad story.

Anyway it is just a matter of staning up and enforing the boundaries, and I just need to keep working, but I just wanted to let this all out.

There are a ton of books out there about boundaries. I like CoDependent No More by Beattie but there are many others.

In my experience, boundaries are what help us live with other people. Otherwise I would be constantly angry and cutting people out of my life. Boundaries help increase communication, and help people realize they're pissing you off (some may not have even known).

As I strengthened my "saying no" and asking for accountability muscles, I felt so much better.

FWiw, professional cognitive behavioral therapy also helped a lot. I was able to see if things were genuine or manipulative...figure out if there was anything I could change. I highly recommend therapy if you grew up in a dysfunctional family (like mine) with religious fanaticism and some insanity. It (among other things like rfm) helped me figure out what was normal and abnormal. I had no idea growing up.

Thank you for the encouragement ava. I have thought of buying that book.

I have actually made some improvements reading stuff by Albert Elli, one of the original cognitive therapists. A live therapist would help a lot too I'm sure.

You are right about not having a reference for normal.

"I love hiking and art, but can't maintain a set time to enjoy them without guilt and a nervous knot in my stomach."

I used to and still sort of have a similar problem.

A wise therapist once told me that if I don't set and enforce a boundary I will feel like shit; if I do set and enforce a boundary I will also feel like shit.

The key - The first situation leads to festering resentment, anger and grrr because you're being starved of what makes you, you. The second situation allows you to do stuff that makes you feel good and you actually... eventually... learn to deal with that guilt and tummy knot. But you have to have that experience (of sticking to your boundary) to learn how to deal with the guilt and knots and can't learn to deal with them if you don't practice.

So practice --> Get out there and hike and create!

Good point about feeling like crap either way, but that doing what makes me feel like I own myself makes me stronger in the long run.

You've been conditioned to respond in certain ways when given various promptings. This website (by one of our board members, The 1st Free at Last) is an excellent resource to help you understand what was done to you.

http://members.shaw.ca/blair_watson/

Keep fighting the good fight. You will prevail!

I read the book by Branden that the website quotes at the top. I immediately thought of my codependency in relation to the church and in relationship to my parents and spouse. It was such a relief to read something like that.

Here's a technique I use all the time: Pretend your life is a movie in production.

In private, after an incident where you know you messed up and should have enforced boundaries better, do a "take 2". Run through the scene again, saying what you should have said originally. Don't just run through it in your mind, say your lines out loud.

If you can't figure out what your "line" should have been, ask for suggestions here.

I know--you can't change the past, but when it comes to boundary issues, you'll always get another chance to get it right in real life.

Eventually, you may even develop a few snappy "catch phrases" just like the stars.

I love boundaries.

I'd start with the stake president and write him a letter insisting on no contact. Caller ID is your friend.

Then I'd move on to your parents. I'd tell them that religion is not on the table for discussion, full stop. They need to respect their own 11th Article of Faith. If they bring up religion, I'd get up and leave or hang up the phone. Rinse and repeat a time or two and they'll get the message.

It's a little different with your wife. I'd tell her how much I love her and the kids and that you'd love to do family activities on a regular basis, but you are not participating in a Mormon FHE because you are not Mormon. Then propose regular family activities on a different night so that she can do her little rituals with the kids.

Choose one goal. Decide what you'll say and do about it, then DO Not waver for a instant. Be a broken record and repeat your expectation every time it comes into question.

For example, "I won't be saying prayers anymore, so please don't ask me." Whenever someone asks after that repeat the sentence or just say "No, someone else needs to do it."

You'll find it will be easier once you're determined to follow your plan for each boundary intrusion. Soon, people will be treating you with more respect generally even when no boundaries are in question.

Exdrymo, cheryl, excatholic, thank you for the practical suggestions. I'll save them and read back through them periodically to help myself.

One of the most hurtful things about my membership in the church is that I learned to doubt my own mind, and I learned to doubt it about things that were really deeply important to me like self-determination, creativity, intellectual exploration, the enjoyment of the broad beautiful range of ideas that people share.

One thing I have noticed that the church does is to make the mundane important. Getting you to do things that you can tell are meaningless but getting you to convince yourself that they are important, more important than your own life, i.e. the temple.

I think of the washings and annointings before when there was private touching. What a way to tear down boundaries. I am mostly hetero but sometimes attracted to the same sex. I remember shaking and trying not to think unclean thoughts as I went around and around that circle. Some kid who seemed to be gay and was probably sent to work in the temple to overcome that told me to just focus on the ordinances.

I used to get really disoriented in the washings and annointings.

You are doing this why? Because the dead need it to be exalted. Why do they need it? Because God said so. How do we know that God said so? Someone else saw him and talked to him. How do we know someone else saw him and talked to him? Because we read a book and felt good. What if we didn't feel good? Keep trying. And when I do feel good how do I know that it means something is true? The same guy who told you he talked to God told you that that is how you will know it is true.

It all adds up to: Question yourself and doubt your perceptions. Don't trust your own mind.

Your first inclinations on boundaries are right and good. Trust them and you'll do well. Ignore and you'll feel used and abused.

Good luck.

You don't have to change everything at once and if you miss an opportunity to set a boundary, there's always next time. Don't worry.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2013 09:45PM by Cheryl.

Remember that absolute knowledge is not useful. There is no way to be 100% certain that the sun will rise tomorrow. What is important is reasonable assurance. You do research the best you can and make decisions. That is the best you can do. No one can do better. Mormons do far worst.

Now that you're out you will learn to think for yourself. Life will actually start to make a lot more sense. You will be willing to study things, alternate points of view you never would have allowed yourself to as a Mormon. You will make mistakes, you are a human, it's okay.

You might want to pick up a book on co-dependence, saying no, or setting boundaries.