RandyJ said:"True, and the same can be said of the Lemba people---the black Jews of southern Africa which Simon Southerton has written on---and the Samang people of Malaysia. About 15 years ago, the Discovery Channel documtentary "The Real Eve" related that researchers had noted a strong physical resemblance between the Samang and an eastern African tribe. DNA studies showed that t
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I find it fascinating that he uses science to try and persuade us what it can't do, without nary a hint of what it can and does do. And I reject his assumption that science can't do what he claims it can't. It's a fallacy similar to the scientific creationists. All they try to do is prove evolution wrong. But proving evolution wrong doesn't automatically mean it's right that God created as the Bi
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The difference between an ipad and seer stone makes ALL the difference. Hundreds of MILLIONS have an ipad and can use it and we KNOW, because of the evidence, that it actually works. The seer stone? Not so much. The church has hid it. That screams charlatan and fake. People who have the goods present them for inspection. What better way to demonstrate to the world this is the real McCoy after all
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Anecdotal evidence such as these kinds of story tellings used to really turn me on as an apologist. Since reading Richard Carrier I have come to see them for what they are evidenceless propositions that have an astonishing low probability of being factual, real, or true. And notice there is always such a way that none of the stories can be verified, there is no evidence, etc. Ah fun testimony tim
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If the church actually KNEW it worked, they would do the obvious thing, have it scientifically tested. That way the world can see it as reality. And surely God would want that. You know, the "stone" cut out of the mountain without hands and consuming the whole world? Lets see the actual evidence, not just Joseph Smith's say so. Mere pictures do nothing for me.
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I think it'd be a real testimony builder if the church would do the honest thing and scientifically test it to see if it actually works.....
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I have just skimmed this thread, so I mean no insult if I get names incorrect. I get the impression that someone is saying that science has no idea. I rather don't think this would be accurate, not that I am a scientist, but I am a science reader. In reading a very fine book "Charles Darwin: The Beagle Letters," editor Frederick Burkhardt, Cambridge Univ. Press, 2008, in the Introductio
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So long as they continue to ignore their own assumptions, their materials can't possible deal with either the real issues, nor the real problems.
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RandyJ and SteveB..... GOOD stuff man! Thanks for the efforts.
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Interesting when I posted my response to him on my blog, Peterson unfriended me on Facebook. My life is crushed, my spirit heavy, oh my soul, how doth thou not rottest in apologetic hell? What can I do now for my salvation?!
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Yes when I was an apologist I was astonished at how FARMS treated all this salamander silliness with trying to authenticate it! I knew it was a forgery from the get go, and when asked to speak at church on it I simply stood up at the pulpit and said come on people! This is a hoax! A few were angry at me because FARMS demonstrated it authentic. I said they did no such thing. Their defensive reacti
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Hey Steve Benson..... A little history in my own story of discovery that pertains to Dan Barker. I am honestly NOT trying to cause consternation around here. I had accepted for years what other apologists had said about atheists, they used old tired arguments, they were weak, and have been refuted. We've read them, they have nothing to say, etc. I simply took their word for it. One day a few year
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I well remember Duwayne Anderson. He and Randy J were THE nemesis's we had to tackle. It was from alt.religion.Mormon that we all bunched up and began FAIR so we would have ALL the answers catalogued. Did you guys know that? Me and Juliann Reynolds, and Darryl Barksdale......ahhhhhhhh the good ole days when we knew everything.....dammit man I am almost sorry I grew a brain - Lol!
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Runtu, you were Johnny Cat?! I remember you! And, of course, that idiot Randy J who just wouldn't listen to me - Lol! Now that "idiot" has this "idiot" thinking in entirely new directions. Whee! The fun of learning eh? That was my first exposure to the world of internet religious discussions. Gawd I would post 100 posts per day *easy* What an enthusiastic arse I were...... Wha
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I'm still hanging around a bit. Can't get as vocal as I want to. Not yet. Am researching and writing however. When the shoe drops there's gonna be a KA-WHAM! GRIN!
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Ya know, this is hilarious! Now that will certainly leave an impression, of course, but is it the impression Bednar thinks? I suppose only the SPirit and time will tell.....
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Paul the Apostle wrote: Everybody is talking about "the Givens Approach" but NOBODY here is telling me what their approach actually "IS". Backyard Professor says: Their approach is Sure go ahead with a few doubts, just do't let them get too big. And if they do, then come back to church. That's it in a nutshell. Honestly.
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When I read Terryl's "The God Who Weeps" I called him a rhetorician. Now that I have read his newest missive The Crucible of Doubt," I believe he is a rhetorical apologist. That is my new name for these guys. They are quite clever with language, although it reminds me too much of Neal A. Maxwell. They have a more subtle way of saying "have faith, don't doubt. The church is s
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Ah Randy, we went through the loop de loops on ARM back then didn't we? GRIN! I suspect I consumed way too much jello and it went to my head - Lol! Jello for brains. Well I mean for instance, back then I would have literally accepted every word that Dan Peterson recently wrote about the historical Jesus. But reviewing it now with a different mindset, I see something entirely different. I think I
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Isn't it utterly ***fascinating*** that as an apologist I had never even thought of all these problems?! I mean now they seem so blatantly obvious and DUH YUP that it amazes me!!! I had my run ins with Kent for a few years, but I don't recall this interesting analysis. I may have to get back hold of him and this time "learn" from him instead of constantly try to "correct" him!
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I understand I am late to the party of seeing the obvious from the other side. When one is enmeshed in apologetics, the best way I can describe it is you actually CANNOT see the other side. It's truly weird. You CANNOT think objectively, and cannot even begin to ask questions that will help you see or learn objectively. Mormonism literally saturates your thinking. There is no other paradigm. I ho
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I sympathize with your thinking and attempts and efforts in so many ways Zeezrom...... if there is a god, and it/she/he actually does want us to know about it all, then it/she/he will be willing to find ways to communicate the information, otherwise, it's all up to us using our brains...... I can't see it any other way right now.
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Actually I am not depressed much at all really. I am still looking at all sides, seeing the arguments, both strong and weak from both sides, and see the apologists' arguments as weaker than I had supposed. It is the actual logical reason for agnosticism about it all. I truly now simply don't know. What I thought was strong arguments have turned out to be more wishful pleading than strong, and so
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Some sympathetic, some quite judgmental, others just thrash and trash me. One said I obviously didn't really know Mormonism, which was fun because others came on and said that was obviously bullshit. Lol! Overall somewhat lukewarm to negative actually. Some are now actually attempting to proseltyze as if they are missionaries and I an investigator. One actually said he would be glad to get the mi
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Excellent review Richard! Thanks for the link!
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Because I am rather dense - Lol!
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Got a new book today and am almost half way through. Can't.....put......it......down........ Authored by Earl M. Wunderli, "An Imperfect Book," Signature Books, 2013. A phenomenal intriguing analysis of all the apparent ancient aspects of the Book of Mormon that really on closer analysis are not ancient at all, and can quite logically and actually be ascertained to have come from merely
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I will received Carrier's new book on Jesus next Tuesday. I believe it is important for me to at least read the materials on as many sides as I have time so I can see what others are saying.
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When I read "Misquoting Jesus" I then went to his book "Jesus Interrupted," and then to "God's Problem." It's been pretty much down hill from there....... I mean for believing what theologians of ANY stripe say now about either Jesus or the Bible. His book "Forged" is utterly astonishing! I am now reading his scholarly cversion "Forgery and Counter-for
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Bart Ehrman's new book, "How Jesus Became God." Read it. 5 stars. Wish church had taught us this instead of the theological warm bosom feeling pap and pablum. No wonder history destroys faith. No wonder scholarship destroys faith. Faith is based on wishful thinking, not actual knowledge. Ehrman does a significant job here in showing how this weird state of affairs about a Jewish peasant
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