The offended or the offender? Re: "YOU CHOOSE TO BE OFFENDED" - "I think far too many use it as a scapegoat for their offensive behavior, never taking responsibility for their own errors..." I sent this to a bishop recently who wants me to 'return' to the church (despite the fact that it was the church who excommunicated me from their membership and religion and that I h
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He has far too much to think about than coming on here! I've challenged his whole view of the church and it's gospel. Literally turning it in it's head. The following talk (unedited version) should be enough to challenge his views. http://www.lds-mormon.com/poelman.shtml
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Actually, yes. If it's held at my request I am asking them to hold it. Ok there is the whole questioning bit but if I requested it they are doing so at my request - so although it's a bit strange, I'm still in charge because it's happens because I initiate it. I also respond how and if I wish - the outcome could be their 'decision' to end church discipline. It's nit actually their decision becaus
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The decisions if men us evident in tge fact that decisions are made before a council is even reconvened - for example the judgement that it's not the right time to reconvene. Or even the decision that such a persons "sin" means that a council should be held - although technically formal discipline doesn't have to be the result but I dint know of a council where this has been the case. I
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Thanks - somebody who understands where I'm coming from - and what a great story from your experience. I'm my situation I believe I will have to live with Mormonism for my entire life -because 1. It's part of my history and therefore my current identity and 2. My family may always be part of the religion. Having the latter close ties with Mormonism means that you have to live with it as you can't
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This is an unwritten law of the culture - but has nothing to do with the principle of repentance which they teach. There are many counted as members who do not do the things you mention. Many who are not members of the church and do not believe in Mormonism can answer yes to all those specific "commandments" you mention - I'm sure there are some that you need to believe in Mormonism to
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I find it iteresting to look at the decision making here. Decisions are made by men outside of the established procedures and policies - which dictate that the answer, and thus decision, comes from God and not man. So why, more often than not, does man make such decisions considering the beliefs that are behind such practices?
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You are correct. But if a disciplinary council says an individual can be re-baptised - the individual still has the choice so the control is then in their hands. If the individual chooses not to "rejoin" they are one now in control - it is no longer the church's decision but the individual's. That sends a message and takes back the power.
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If you have a greater knowledge than the institution - they have no power over you - whatever the circumstance.
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Moving on must be easier when your family move in the same direction. However, if a disciplinary council decided I had "repented" and could be re-baptised - it means the choice is then my own.
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Who said anything about rejoining? It wasn't me.
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Not long ago the Bishop approached me and invited me to be re-baptised (because of excommunication - not name removal). At the time I said no as I have done for a number of years. However, I recently asked for a disciplinary council to be held to see what the outcome would be but this has been denied by the Stake President and also (technically) the Bishop although it's not his jurisdiction. So,
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Not true - have a look at Chad Hardy's website, he has some interesting corespondence posted there. Once excommunicated you're not allowed back unless you're a member again.
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Where can we see reference to these studies or letters?
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Of course I will continue, because we haven't come to an agreement yet. The UK Church (as in the incorporated company that holds the church's assests/money in the UK - the church itself is an unincorporated religious association) got a barrister to give the data protection authority an "Opinion" - while I do not agree with much of what he says - he agrees that a contractual document bet
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Yes I live in London, UK. It took a request under the Data Protection Act 1998. I initially wanted all the records to do with my disciplinary council and a membership record is counted with these in the church handbook. I wasn't sent a copy of anything to start with but I didn't accept their response and they eventually cut their contact with me, i.e. Adminstration staff told not to talk to me an
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No they don't record my current location - the ward literally is called "Excommunicated Records" and the stake called "Church Membership System". They do not refer to physical places, only the filed location within their electronic database. Also, the 'newfamilysearch' website pulls my name from the membership records and lists this as it's source (on my mothers account)
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I found the post about resigned member records interesting. What I know and can evidence is the records of former members who were excommunicated. I say 'former members' because when you are excommunicated you are no longer a member of the church - even if you still attend. I was excommunicated and have legally obtained a copy of my full membership record and what was interesting is that it
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Oh My Father is in the current Hymn Book but there was one that mentioned Adam-God which is now not in there. I would have to look the name up.
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Your Comments are very correct and you make good observations. It is this book that published much of the letters on file in the Metropolitan Museum - (I have scanned copies of the originals). The history of what happened to the papyri was something I looked into - hence info above that is hardly mentioned/unknown. If you read James R. Clarke's 'Story of the Pearl of Great Price' you will see
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What is it you don't get? There was no speculation. FACT: Out of the three facismilies two of them isn't extant in it's original form. FACT: The two museum catalogues for St Louis and Wood's Museum talk about the papyri (or the printed facsimiles) and mummies. FACT: We don't know what happened to the items in the Wood's Museum after the fire. FACT: The Wood's Museum burned down in 1871 - loo
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I assume the poster who commented after my last post was saying my comments were not true. I would like to see him/her show me otherwise. It seems there are still many, many misconceptions surrounding the history of the papyri fragments and mummies (meaning what happened to them). My comment was factual even though it omitted specific details. Simply because you carried out research and called th
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They are not kept there anymore - that was a temporary display. Now they are part of the Historical Department and are in a kind of folio where they are covered in a a material (can't remember the name) almost like laminating. The same was done to the original and printers manuscrit of The Book of Mormon fragments held by the church. You have to apply to see them as they are not open to the gener
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But he's already excommunicated. You don't seem to tell a story the same way twice.
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Some were probably destroyed in Woods Museum in Chicago in 1871 along with the two mummies they had (Joseph Smith had four originally). But I find it strange that you all buy the stories from so called "anti" sources without confirming it. It is certain that not all the papyri that Joseph had are extant today. The fragments that the church found out was in New York are probably a major
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Actually - my MP had to call up Salt Lake and speak with the Apostles - but it was actually probably the people under them that do their work. I know the name he mentioned (the person who called back with the decision) was not one of the 12. The MP clearly explained that you're called by the 12 and it's the 12 who decide if you're sent home or not - not the MP. Also the 'major sins' had stopped b
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I was sent home from my mission because I didn't confess before I left and it ws eventually found out after 18 months in the 'field'. I only lied about some of the more minor 'sins' that don't even get you formally disciplined. But then I 'comitted' a more major sin - right before going through the temple and a number of times after that before I left. I just didn't confess. Even when I was set a
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Your (former?) Bishops comment below is flawed! I think he should try and explain (based on his own explnation regarding the Bible) why there are SO MANY churches/religions who believe in the Book of Mormon. All this "IF Joseph Smith was a prophet" stuff "then Thomas S. Monson is a prophet today and the church is true..." is stupid as many churches believe in Joseph Smith and
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I believe it does - mine did in 2008. There is no standard letter but they tend to copy what the handbook says about the different judgement passed - and someone excommunicated is not to pay tithing. The old manuals (1960's) used to give a reason - that people couldn't say the church accepted them/they were in fellowship - I can't remember the exact wording but I have a copy of the manuals.
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What really gets me is that keeping the sabbath by attending church no longer becomes a commandment. The letter is composed from wording in the handbook to read "you MAY attend church if your conduct is orderly". If they go on about being 'offended' they shouldn't state such offensive remarks - do they think someone who commuted a 'sin' that gets them excommunicated is going to be disor
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