Subject: LD$ Church is "downsizing"!
Date: May 31, 2010
Author: anon for this one!

My parents are retired and living in the Midwest. My father has been the "paid" building cleaner for the past 8+ years. He works 1-1/2 to 2 hours per week for barely minimum wage. About one week ago he found out that the LD$ church is eliminating ALL paid building cleaners. He was given a small "severance package" and is done. Funny thing is that he is also on the Stake High Council and now is in charge of training the new "volunteers" who are being called to an "unpaid" position to oversee the building cleanings each week. This is actually a ward call for a member. Imagine getting baptized and getting that first calling as..... THE BUILDING TOILET CLEANER!

My dad has said that in his stake tithing/fast offerings are down despite a modest increase in membership.

**I cannot disclose my regular poster name to protect my Dad!

Subject: Confirmed Building Janitors being let go
Date: Jun 04, 2010
Author: AlmostGone

I have seen the document stating this and it's effective date is July 1st, 2010.

There is a priceless quote in there saying "Members of the church are invited to participate in the cleaning of their buildings in such a way, by their sacrifice, they will come to honor and respect and love these beautiful houses of worship"

Another excerpt:

"...The Church will no longer pay employees or contractors to perform day to day meetinghouse cleaning


Subject: If your father knows that tithing is down...
Date: May 31 12:58
Author: Adult of god

he must also know the huge, oversized proportion of tithing paid into the ward that is sent to SLC, out of the community and into the mall and the Hawaiian hotel, etc., and the pittance that is retained by the ward itself.

Your father's pay was certainly not much! I wonder if this gets him thinking about being used by the morg.

Information on City Creek Center - The Mormon Mall:  Mormon403  (updated May 2010)  Parts A, B, and C.

Mormon Church to spend over $100 million (estimate) on a hotel/resort complex in Hawaii.  Mormon595

Subject: Re: Confirmed Building Janitors being let go
Date: Jun 04 11:13
Author: sherv
Mail Address:  

Now that is funny. "Invited to participate".....well, the masses will think it over I guess and really many will fight over THAT job??? Most will say 'I'll pass". I am sure a few smucks will want to be be noticed and who knows they may announce at the pulpit who these wonderful workers are. Shall we give them a standing ovation?


Subject: Invited, then called or assigned.........n/t


Subject: That quote from the letter is "newspeak" for . . .
Date: Jun 04 12:06
Author: JackMormon'sWife


AlmostGone wrote:

> There is a priceless quote in there saying "Members of the church are invited to participate in the cleaning of their buildings in such a way, by their sacrifice, they will come to honor and respect and love these beautiful houses of worship"

Shannon ;o)


Subject: Accomplished via a "voluntary reduction in force"
Date: Jun 04 12:26
Author: Another Shrubbery

Yes, I am sure the workers are voluntarily reducing themselves. I work in employment law, and have never heard this ridiculous phrase used, even by the worst employers.

On the human (non-law) side, I just want to say it is awful that some of the only blue collar people who are helped by tithing are being ditched.

While, of course, the "faithful" upper middle class folks who have time to attend the temple on Saturday continue to benefit from the tithing of a worldwide church.


Subject: Re: Confirmed Building Janitors being let go
Date: Jun 04 12:48
Author: Misfit

In our stake, the responsibilities are split between the wards, with each ward being in charge of alternate months. Each ward is divided into 4 or 5 teams divided by alphabet. So my team gets one week every other month. Even then, I can only get 3 or 4 people to show up on a Saturday to clean the building, so this effectively doubles the workload. As soon as I confirmed the new duties with the PFR, I emailed the bishop and resigned my post as team cleanup captain. I then emailed the other team leaders and told them of my resignation. I'm hoping that they will be inspired by my example and do the same. I haven't been to PH opening exercises in a couple of months, but I'm almost tempted to go this week just so I can counterpoint when they try to sell this as an opportunity to serve.


Subject: beautiful houses of worship
Date: Jun 04 12:59
Author: Challenger

Is that what they consider those cookie cutter buildings? "beautiful houses of worship"?


Subject: Thanks for posting the source document. nt


Subject: The church is never self-restraining. It will keep asking more from its members until ...
Date: Jun 04 14:18
Author: My Take

... the well simply runs dry.

Mormonism will "use them up" without compassion. It will take as much money and time as it can get away with. It will give them pablum lesson manuals. It will interview (interrogate) them even more endlessly. It will have them report on each other more and more. It will take away local money from ward activities and fund raisers. It will make members buy their own church supplies. It will cut back missionary meal money to a few dollars a day

Only when things totally fall apart will the Mormon church finally back off, and then only for its OWN survival sake, not out of regard for the exhausted members.

The members exist for the church, not the other way around.

As Christ noted, the church's "heart is where its treasure is":

A Three-Billion-Dollar Mall -- A Hundred-Million Dollar Hawaii Resort -- Massive Florida and Mid-West ranches -- Vast Media Empires -- the Half-Billion Dollar salvation of an insurance investment gone bad -- Thirteen acres of prime downtown SLC propert -- The Main Street Mall!

And God only knows how many OTHER business deals that the church has been able to keep from the public eye.

All those billions of dollars at the Church leaders' disposal and raised from tax exempt donations -- yet all that secrecy -- and no accountability!

Meanwhile, so many members are at the end of their ropes, especially in this economy.

It is shameless.


(Read this from Short Topics)

Date: Mar 19 10:43 2005
Author: Inside-outsider


It's the World's Perfect Business Scheme and you can do it too. Just start your own "Afterlife Insurance Company" then make the greatest promise humanly imaginable -- promise your clients that if they totally obey you and pay their premiums, after death they'll become Gods! In fact, polygamous Gods who'll have eternal sex with innumerable partners! Until then, they'll enjoy moral supremacy over all humanity. You do need to claim that you're a prophet of God however, but this is the easiest claim on earth to make and no one can prove you're lying.


Using the power of your "Afterlife Insurance Company":

You demand a whopping ten percent of each client's income for their policy premiums and...

You publicly humiliate anyone who questions you or fails to pay. This power is so great that...

You can even ban clients from attending things like family weddings! And yet, the absurd irony is...

You don't have to prove to anyone that your Afterlife Insurance Company actually works, so...

You are worry free because, in this business, all your disillusioned customers are dead. Therefore...

You never pay off a single claim (although you literally promised the Universe). Then, incredibly...

You reverse the Burden of Proof--If others don't magically know you're right--they're wrong! Now...

You destroy rational thought with the delusion that deeply feeling it's true is all that matters. Soon...

You addict clients so forcefully to your fantasy they fear they can't live without it! From all this...

You urge mass lying (re: the Emperor's New Clothes) by saying "All worthy people will know it's true."

You now multiply this gullibility with the following arsenal of business weapons --

You exploit your very clients as free labor to run your business for you, even on Sundays.

You command a massive volunteer sales force that must actually pay its own expenses.

You endure almost no outside government interference and with limited regulation and...

You have no inner accountability either, such as member or stockholder oversight! Better yet...

You run a company that pays no taxes, but instead enjoys tax-subsidized dues. Then for comfort...

You answer only to your inside buddies for your personal pay and perks! But not stopping there...

You find abundant opportunities for nepotism and cronyism even outside the firm, because...

You freely raise large venture capital funds for unrelated business schemes. And all this time...

You enjoy total administrative, financial and clubhouse secrecy. Now, Jaded by your aloof stature...

You callously use emotional, social and spiritual extortion as powerful revenue tactics. Coldly...

You hold hostage a family's togetherness in the hereafter, plus their closeness here. And amazingly...

You even intimidate your clients literally down to their underwear. Then for good measure...

You claim the right to acquire all their worldly possessions too! Your disrespect is so deep that...

You require them to make dour commitments, before even telling them what they're agreeing to! Yet...

You still passionately kindle their hero worship with great theatrical skill, because, as Matthew put it...

You wear charming sheep's clothing that makes False Prophets seem so totally respectable. Finally...

You exercise massive social, political and economic clout. And the proverbial "fruits" abound --

You and your cohorts rule vast empires wielding your colossal power and wealth!

This Great Mormon Money Machine is perfect,

it's just Lies, Dollars and Sanctimony

Two facts expose this money-making scheme: (1) The LDS church is one of the wealthiest religions in America while, (2) Mormon-dominated Utah is consistently first in personal bankruptcies. The Church gets rich--as members get poor. These two undisputed facts display the final outcome (fruits) of Mormonism and, according to Matthew, such fruits reveal False Prophets.


Subject: There goes my ex MIL's church job of 20+ years. Pitiful salary, practically volunteer already n/t


Subject: When I was the church custodian
Date: Jun 04 16:40
Author: drilldoc

as a young teenager, the main custodian was this elderly sweet man from the stake. I don't know how it is today, but to let go the custodian may be just another sign of the desperate nature the church is in. I wonder how many elderly people they are going to let go while the church continues to shove money into that downtown mall project.


Subject: Did'nt the morg let them go once before in the 1990's too? N/T


Subject: Before they dropped custodians over the individual buildings.
Date: Jun 04 23:52
Author: Tyson Dunn

This time, they are dropping the stake-level crews.

I suspect this is going to be a massive failure, and maybe one of the worst ones the church has concocted. When people start getting sick in LDS buildings that have been poorly cleaned, they will both lose new converts and old members.

It's a complete lose-lose.



Subject: Re: Confirmed Building Janitors being let go
Date: Jun 05 02:00
Author: temple name julia

ran into a TBM friend the other day is being downsized from cleaning and she says it is okay, she will be blessed with something else. I sure hope so.


Subject: Re: Yes! He indicated that this is a church wide elimination. n/t


Subject: Re: LD$ Church is "downsizing"!
Date: May 31 13:02
Author: sherv

This is a real bad sign. Yes, who would accept their first calling as "Official Toilet Cleaner" with a smile on their this is done usually daily at a school....if there are meetings there more than three times a wk. it should be done more than just before Sun. Yikes!!! I could see the guy who gets that run like mad unless he is feeling so "blessed" to have any calling. Does your Dad get the reason they need to do this?


Subject: who would accept their first calling as "Official Toilet Cleaner" with a smile on their face? ...
Date: May 31 13:28
Author: Zeezrom

easy answer.

Someone who thinks the Bishop really is Gods Voice?

Perhaps it should be rephrased as "Who would refuse God if he asked you to clean toilets"

It should be easy to get toilet cleaner callings, especially since Smith managed to get women to screw around with him and get men to hand over their wives and daughters under that same guise of God said so.


Subject: Give us hours of your free service and pay us your tithe…
Date: May 31 13:04
Author: WiserWomanNow

and call us The One True Church™ as you do it!

--Any chance this unfortunate recent move by the church has turned on a light bulb for your dad?


Subject: I hope so, but doubt it...
Date: May 31 13:14
Author: anon but regular poster

When I left the church he and I chatted a lot about things that bothered me. He talked to his stake president and then suddenly he was called to the High Council! He is smart but very devoted to the "eternal marriage" concept with my Mom.


Subject: Re: I hope so, but doubt it...
Date: May 31 13:45
Author: George

Downsizing in number of wards as well. A ward in my stake was dissolved yesterday and the members scattered to other nearby wards.


Subject: Ouch. Your dad gets let go and then has to train...
Date: May 31 13:46
Author: ramanujam

the unpaid volunteers who are replacing him? That's cold.

One can only wonder how money this really saves. And if church HQ goes to such lengths to save a few dimes, what does that say about their cash flow situation?


Subject: Something I have noticed in Utah
Date: May 31 13:50
Author: anon4this

There was a day when you couldn't find a parking space at church. Lately when I drive by buildings on Sunday it seems like the lots are always half or more empty (anytime of day on Sunday). Maybe this is just me. Maybe its because they have built chapels on every other block and overbuilt?? Who knows the reason. Has anyone else noticed this?


Subject: Do you think the 13 took a pay cut? nt


Subject: They will probably get a raise and a bonus...
Date: May 31 13:56
Author: MK ULTRA

...for saving TSCC money by eliminating custodians.


Subject: Just shows you that....
Date: May 31 14:08
Author: Veritas

the LDS church is no longer "flushed" with success!


Subject: Re: I crunched some numbers... it is at least 9.5 $Million
Date: May 31 14:10
Author: regular poster but anon for this

According to the LD$ website, there are 28,424 wards/branches. Assuming 2.5 wards meeting per building this equals 11,370 buildings.

Using my dad's 2 hrs/week x 52 weeks/year = 104 hours/yr/bldg.

104 hrs x 11,370 = 1,182,480 hrs/yr.
Assuming $8.00/hr ~ $9.5 Million $/yr.

Of course this is based on using a number of assumptions. But this does not include the number of "fulltime" people that are employed in each region to coordinate building maintenance. My dad said that many of those positions are being eliminated also.


Subject: Which makes it less than .20% of it's annual income.
Date: May 31 14:19
Author: ramanujam

Assuming they take in around $4.5 billion per year.

You would think that the negative effect of making members clean toilets far outweighs the cost savings. $9.5 million is pocket change to an organization as large as LDS, Inc. It's small enough to be lost in the rounding.


Subject: The Church is Hurting Financially
Date: May 25 23:25
Author: TruthSeeker

Check out this announcement that just went out to Bishops. The Mormon Church can afford $3 Billion to build a cool shopping mall, but they can't afford to clean their own buildings? Of course, if the Church was actually honest about their finances we wouldn't have to guess. Decide for yourself...

May 21, 2010

Hello Bishops & Presidents:

There will be a change in the custodial cleaning responsibility starting the 1st of June. Facilities Management will no longer be cleaning the buildings. The cleaning of the building will be totally the members
responsibility (see memo below).

It will be very important to have a good Ward Facilities Manager to make sure the buildings are cleaned properly. FM will still have responsibility for repairs and maintenance on the buildings.

Best regards,
[Name Removed]

You may or may not be aware that the church is in the process of further reducing our paid custodial staff. We recently attended a meeting where representatives from church headquarters Human Resources Department presented a program for the voluntary buy-out of our positions (we could take the buy-out now and receive a severance package or decline the offer knowing our job will be eliminated by December 31, 2010). There are several other benefits the church is offering to ease the transition back into the
job market. The program was originally intended for custodians only but was extended to facilities managers, office assistants, and mechanics.

The positions of facilities manager, office assistant, and mechanics will be maintained (none of us took the buy-out) but custodial positions will be eliminated within the next few months. This means that we will definitely lose the following people:

· [Names Removed]
We will continue to service your stakes from the FM Office with myself, Sister H-----, and two mechanics.

This means that we will no longer be doing any cleaning in your meetinghouse facilities. The church has told us that all cleaning will be the responsibility of the local membership. We have normally been cleaning each building the first week of the month but as of June 1st, we will not be there.

We have felt that this day was coming since the church first started the Member Involvement Program a number of years ago. We appreciate all you do to keep the facilities looking nice and will be here to offer any
assistance or training you might deem necessary. Cleaning supplies will still be ordered, delivered, and restocked by our people.

If you have any questions, please feel free to give me a call.

[Name Removed]
Facilities Manager


Subject: Re: The Church is Hurting Financially
Date: May 25 23:31
Author: Flecher

Truly the last days...for clean toilets!


Subject: Man. The buildings stink now. They will really start to reek.
Date: May 26 04:15
Author: Rubicon

Come to church and smell the stale piss in the air as we sit in our holy underwear. Oh it's great to be at church.


Subject: No money for janatorial services but they still have millions for all those Mc Temples!!nt


Subject: Re: The Church is Hurting Financially
Date: May 26 00:01
Author: Greyfort

I worked for Facilities Management. Even a few years back, they had begun cutting back the Custodial hours quite a bit.


Subject: Apparently the church has a lot of money in Wells Fargo and Citibank mortgage backed securities.
Date: May 26 04:21
Author: Rubicon

The church has a poor history of handling money. The first fiasco was the Kirtland Safety Society failure. The church learned the hard way you can't print money from nothing. Next the church got into $3 million of debt finishing the Salt Lake Temple. This is when they issued the 10% tithing to pay for this huge debt. Then the church got in trouble again in the 1950's building too many temples. It wouldn't surprise me that the church is in trouble again due to Hinckley's crazy spending, the mall, less tithing due to the the economy and investing in toxic assets.


Subject: Re: Apparently the church has a lot of money in Wells Fargo and Citibank mortgage backed securities.
Date: May 26 08:15
Author: AxelDC

I think that the slowdown in membership growth, an increase in inactivity, and backlash from Prop 8 are also hurting their revenue stream. Members who don't join or don't go don't pay tithing, and seeing the church spend money on political issues you may not agree with doesn't encourage you to write big checks.


Subject: "As a man stinketh so is he" - - the bathrooms smelled...
Date: May 26 10:17
Author: Steven

horribly when I left 2 years ago. As a member of the Bishopric I helped clean it once every few months. The bathrooms were so nasty, I always went home for a decontamination shower afterwards. I betcha the Church Office building in SLC still has janitorial staff though.

I hereby challenge Monsoon, Leakydwarf, and BKPooper to clean their own bathrooms. I'm pretty sure King Benjamin cleaned his own.


Subject: Mormon 8 :37
Date: May 26 00:02
Author: anon

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.


Subject: Huh? I thought...
Date: May 26 00:09
Author: BestBBQ (too lazy to log in)

the members had been doing the cleaning for years.


Subject: Yep- ours started about 10y rs ago--except for "deep cleaning"...n/t


Subject: GOOD GOOD GOOD-May it MELT like the Evil Witch it is
Date: May 26 00:26
Author: pies

Paid office assistants? Since WHEN?


Subject: Re: GOOD GOOD GOOD-May it MELT like the Evil Witch it is
Date: May 26 08:55
Author: Greyfort

I was a paid Office Assistant. And the members did come in to clean, but we still had paid custodial staff. Their hours were just cut.


Subject: It's not that the church is hurting financially ...
Date: May 26 01:19
Author: Fetal Deity

... it's that the members are prospering JANITORIALLY !

It's a "glass is half full vs. half empty" thang. Try to be a little more positive, 'kay? ; )


Subject: Member Involvement Program = Every Member a Janitor
Date: May 26 01:27
Author: Shummy

>We have felt that this day was coming since the church first started the Member Involvement Program a number of years ago.

You betcher sweet a$$ they did.


Subject: Re: Member Involvement Program = Every Member a Janitor
Date: May 26 01:49
Author: justintime( not logged-in)

since the missionaries are looking for Community Service work- they could clean the toilets ( bet that would wake up some of their haughty TBM moms....LOL)


Subject: The extra $1B for the 'Great & Spacious' Mall (cost now $4B) must REALLY be hurting LD$ Inc.
Date: May 26 02:12
Author: FreeAtLast

The Mighty Builder recently gave us the heads-up about the latest cost increase. His estimate is that the project will ultimately cost LD$ Inc. $8B!

Someone else posted a couple of months ago that the Morg chapel in their area was looking unkempt and had smelly bathrooms. I guess the 'worker bees' aren't as industrious as the suits - who don't clean church buildings - at the regional and COB levels have believed.

Another person recently posted on this board about the LDS Conf. Center in SLC being cleaned by 'volunteer' members. Temples too, is my understanding. Is this the case in your area?


Subject: Your tithing not at work
Date: May 26 08:07
Author: AxelDC

If I were a member, and I made about $60k year, the church is expecting me to give them $500 a month for the privilege of going to church.

If I were to walk in the door and see a chapel that is run down and find out that members are supposed to do the cleaning, I'd wonder what they were doing with all that money. With 100 families in a ward, and 3 wards in a building, that's $150k per month coming into that building.

You'd think they could afford to clean a chapel with $150000 coming in.

It's a huge mistake to ruin the member experience, because they are the ones paying your bills. If they expected me to give them $500 per month AND scrub toilets....


Subject: Re: Your tithing not at work
Date: May 26 09:48
Author: beautiful_restitution

Maybe members will get smart and use their tithing money to hire professional cleaning crews rather than send it to the suits.
"Yes Bishop, I'm a full tithe payer. I kept all the Merry Maids receipts as proof."


Subject: You get what you pay for
Date: May 26 07:07
Author: AxelDC

This is really a stupid move by the church. I don't know what their financial situation is, but it's the equivalent of saving money by not maintaining your car. You'll save a few hundred now, and pay a few thousand later.

Do they really think that members are going to properly maintain their buildings on a voluntary basis? When I ran a condo board, we had members who balked at our professional cleaning staff and offered to do it on their own. We tried it on a limited basis with the yard work, and it didn't last much more than a month. People slacked off, did a sloppy job, and our landscaping looked pathetic. We had to pay our professionals extra to undo the damage caused by our volunteers. We lost money on that cost saving measure.

I think the LDS church will find out that over time, their facilities will degrade much quicker than expected. Maintenance is not a luxury item, and after calling the plumber to fix clog toilets, having to repaint and renovate more often because the volunteers can't clean properly or even damage the building with incorrect methods, maybe they will realize that this is a terrible way to save money. How will investigators feel about going into a filthy church? How will members feel about bringing their friends to a dilapidated chapel.

Never mind the damage to the custodians. Obviously, these are not highly paid people. How can the church be so cruel as to lay them off in 10% unemployment? Is this how Christ would treat people who work for him.

If the church is this badly in trouble, then they should start retrenching in other areas. Cutting out cleaning is going to cost them a lot more in terms of building depreciation, member enthusiasm, public image and employee relations than they could possibly save in salaries.

As one saying goes, "If we keep saving money, pretty soon we'll be out of business."


Subject: Exactamundo!
Date: May 26 07:43
Author: hell's angel

Not only will LDS Inc's buildings be poorly maintained, so will its members.

How many dirty toilets does one have to clean before he realizes that he could use that time on about a THOUSAND other fun things and not have to pay a 10% tax to have the "privilege" to do so.


Subject: Re: Exactamundo!
Date: May 26 08:10
Author: AxelDC

We had to clean our own bathrooms at the MTC. We didn't like it, but we were only there two months and it didn't take that long.

When they wanted us to hand strip wax from stairs, that's when we all snuck out and left. We got chewed out for that, but the guilt trip wasn't nearly as painful as stripping wax on your hands and knees.

Missionaries are a captive audience, and their parents are footing the bill. Members have a lot more to do with their time and money than pay to scrub floors.

Is the church trying to play Tom Sawyer?


Subject: Re: You get what you pay for
Date: May 26 08:12
Author: blinkered

They should start cutting at the top. Here in the UK where the church publishes its financials, it states there are about 23 members of staff in the UK receiving salaries of between £60,000 and £80,000 ($80,000 and $100,000). These positions are probably Human Resource Managers, Temple Recorders and Building Engineers, etc. Why not start slashing their hugely inflated salaries? They sit in their plush offices making decisions who in the lower paid jobs are going to suffer all these cutbacks. These workers are being paid only a fraction of their massive salaries and have nobody to represent their interests when their livelihoods are threatened. The church can be a cruel dictatorship when things gets tough, and with reductions being forced at the lower levels, it's the sheep at the bottom of the salary tree that pay the price - and the ones that can least afford it.


Subject: Re: You get what you pay for
Date: May 26 08:16
Author: AxelDC

Decision makers rarely cut their own pay.


Subject: It may not be hurting financially
Date: May 26 09:03
Author: Odell Campbell

I think the LDS church has adopted a business approach to all things religious or otherwise. It could be that the LDS church is minimizing operations costs in order to use more money to invest.


Subject: I'm just trying to envision how this would have worked for our family . . .
Date: May 26 09:22
Author: JackMormon'sWife

In a practical way.

Just before we left the church a few years ago, we were a VERY active, large family with many small children - some disabled - with one in a body cast and a wheelchair at that point.

So say *our* family gets routinely assigned one weekend to clean the chapel and toilets etc. Saturday is the only day we don't have work/school/church obligations . . .

SATURDAY is the day that I run kids to dance, soccer, birthday parties etc. I do laundry, grocery shop and clean MY OWN home. My kids play with the neighbors and sleepovers often run late into the morning with kids jumping on the trampoline, swimming in the pool, or playing video games.

Hubby is a medical professional and works on Saturdays. I personally direct all of the Saturday frenzy on my own.


I'm supposed to halt all social activities and domestic chores (during the only few hours of the week they can be scheduled) and haul my entire brood to the ward meetinghouse. Once there, I try force a bunch of little kids to "clean" all morning???? (hahahahahaha - you should take a look at their bedrooms!) I'm pretty sure we'd leave the building a bigger mess than we found it in.

I'm juuuuuust not "seeing" this picture the way COB does apparently!

What the h*ll is Tommy Monson smoking out there in Salt Lake?!

Shannon ;o)

More information on City Creek Center

Information on City Creek Center - The Mormon Mall:  Mormon403  (updated June 2010)  Parts A, B, and C.

Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church

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