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Posted by: sicklethruster ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 06:26PM

Mormons claim he is, but by definition?

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Posted by: almost ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 06:31PM

Yes, anyone who dies for a cause is considered a martyr.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 06:33PM

He didn't die for a cause. He died because of his actions not beliefs.

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Posted by: Chump ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 06:37PM

Exactly. He wasn't presented with a choice of either denouncing his cause, or dying. He was arrested...he had been arrested over a dozen times in his life, and he had technically been an outlaw on the run for the last 6 years of his life.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: August 29, 2013 09:10AM

moving his cult outside of the U.S. was so attractive. Brigham Young was the one who wanted to join the U.S. and Joe wanted to rule the U.S.

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Posted by: Other Than ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 06:34PM

And what "cause" did he die for, exactly? A criminal dies in a shootout with illegal guns smuggled into a jail and I don't label them a martyr.

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Posted by: grubbygert nli ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 09:30PM

"anyone who dies for a cause "

so every Nazi soldier that died in WWII was also a martyr?

I thought 'martyr' was some kind of exclusive group - way to water it down...

(my sincerest apologies for godwining this thread - couldn't be helped)

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Posted by: Chump ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 06:33PM

"A martyr (Greek: μάρτυς, mártys, "witness"; stem μάρτυρ-, mártyr-) is somebody who suffers persecution and death for advocating, refusing to renounce, and/or refusing to advocate a belief or cause, usually a religious one."

If you want to argue that his "belief or cause" were his criminal pursuits, then yes, he was a martyr. He died for the cause of treason, murder, theft, polygamy...

If you want to claim that he died for Christ, then no.

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Posted by: WinksWinks ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 06:35PM

Well he didn't die willingly, he fired back at the mob. Certainly didn't go "like a lamb" the way TSCC puts it.
And since he earned his death because of all the atrocious acts he committed, I'd call it execution rather than martyring.

Depends on your point of view.

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Posted by: releve ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 07:01PM

I don't think he died a Martyr. He was in jail for breaking the law. No matter how you twist it, destroying property was not legal (see Steven Benson's post from earlier today).

I don't think that the fact that he defended himself has anything to do with whether he was a martyr or not. It is strictly a matter of what charge caused him to be available to a mob who killed him.

If the mob had taken him alive, tied him to a stake and demanded that he recant his testimony at pain of death and he chose not to do that, then he would have been a martyr.

I wish that the mob had done that, because I think he would have said anything to save his own skin and then convinced his followers that it just wasn't his time to go because they needed him so much.

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 07:02PM

I think it is technically accurate to say JS was murdered.

I think martyr is technically no - he did not die for a cause.

However, I think his followers considered him a matyr and thus in many ways he was a matyr in that the result was the same as him being an actual matry.

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Posted by: anonow ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 07:13PM

If you hate him it was justifiable homicide.
If you don't care one way or another he was murdered.
If you love him he was martyred.

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Posted by: whatiswanted ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 07:48PM

A martyr for what?

Not for religious beliefs that is for sure.

He was killed because the people were fed up with his douchebaggery and shenanigans.

But he did not die because he was a Mormon

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Posted by: magnite ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 07:48PM

No. He was not defending the faith. As the situation unfolded:
1. He was in prison because the destroyed personal property. 2, He was killed in vengence either because a) local Masons knew where he was, and were pi$$ed because revealed parts of thier "secret" ceremony, or b) ex-mos knew where he was, and were determined not to let him "violate" more (young?) women.

2 years ago I visited Nauvoo and Carthage. It seemed while everyone else was morning his "maryrdom", I was trying to figure out why he would use a "Masonic" phrase as his last words on this earth. It was early in my de-conversion, and I wanted to see what eveyone else saw, but just couldn't "feel" it.

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Posted by: amos2 ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 08:02PM

He's a martyr if he was killed for polygamy or for stealing masonic rites, and possibly indirectly if he was killed for sacking the anti-polygamy newspaper.

He's not a martyr if he was killed in retaliation for violent Danite crimes by a rival "mob". That basically makes him just a crime boss.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 09:19PM

He was armed and died in a gun fight in a jail.
Don't know how that makes him a martyr, but the believers think so.

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Posted by: rationalist01 ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 09:25PM

He was murdered by vigilante action, not martyred. Illegal though his killing was, he brought it all upon himself. This guy pissed off so many people that I'm very surprised he lasted as long as he did! As mayor of Nauvoo, he surrounded himself with vicious henchmen and had people's property destroyed and even had people killed. This man was off the rails, mad with power and got what he asked for.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2013 09:27PM by rationalist01.

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 10:45PM

According to LDS mythology, he basically said he was going to be a martyr; like genuine heroes, genuine real martyrs don't talk about it.

Just sayin'....

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