With nothing else to do, I may as well share my pain.

I am flying into San Francisco, when the captain comes on to announce that weather in SF has air traffic control putting us in a holding pattern. Ok, so far no biggie.

Then he mentions we don't have fuel for more then 15 minutes of holding. Seriously, WTF? I know how it works, how it takes fuel to carry fuel so they don't top-off, but to fly with only an extra 15 minutes of fuel?

So here I am sitting on a runway in San Jose, where we fueled up just to be told we need to wait an hour on the tarmac before we can take off.

Now if only the kid with the loud gameboy would stop kicking my seat. Normally I am pretty lucky with air travel...

Sounds awful. I hope you get on your way soon.

On the bright side, I'm not connecting. Some people on this flight have connections to Asia and will be spending a night or two.

IIRC, the federal rules say 45 minutes of reserve fuel is to be carried to cover unexpected weather detours enroute, traffic and weather holds. I don't think that rule has changed since I last piloted an airplane (over 20 yrs ago).

Any way to call them on this? It is not like we were in a headwind, we landed in SJC when we were scheduled for SFO.

squeebee Wrote:
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> Any way to call them on this? It is not like we
> were in a headwind, we landed in SJC when we were
> scheduled for SFO.

Airlines are not held accountable for mechanical or weather delays. The FAA calls the shots on the traffic flow and at times an airport weather will go below landing minimums. SFO is particularly prone to fog due to the cold Pacific water and warmer, stagnant air. The runways are build on landfill in the Bay.

I get the weather, I meant the short fuel, but it sounds like the rules don't apply to hold fuel.

squeebee Wrote:
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> I get the weather, I meant the short fuel, but it
> sounds like the rules don't apply to hold fuel.

You are perceptive. The 45 reserve is mandatory, the amount hold fuel is not. My guess is that if an airline is experiencing too many diversions due to hold, the FAA may question the airline and put it under increased scrutiny, but that is rare. Airlines resist adding what they consider excessive fuel for holding. They have the figures and know how often diversions occur. They also know that diverts will affect their on time performance figures and they are very concerned about that. Executives receive bonuses based on the on time percentages. Generally, they are very good at what they do. Check the DOT on time history of your flight.

http://apps.bts.gov/xml/ontimesummarystatistics/src/ddisp/OntimeSummarySelect.xml?tname=OntimeSummaryFlightData



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2013 02:05AM by No Mo.

The 45 minutes of reserve fuel (domestic rules, international is 30 minutes plus other reserve hold fuel) is fuel the plane lands with. It is NOT for holds, diverts, unexpected delays, etc. You don't dip into that fuel except for real emergencies. In other words, you don't land with empty tanks. The aircraft holding fuel is what you have for delays. Holding fuel is different than the 45 minute reserve. Most airlines have cut back on the amount of fuel carried for holding because it costs fuel to carry fuel due to a heavier aircraft and fuel cost in certain airports. Some airlines are worse than others, but I decline to name that airline. Airlines do cost analysis of the amount of fuel it cost and they know through flight history which flights experience delays. You can blame the geeks along with the airlines. It is not uncommon to have only 15 minutes of hold time for some airlines. Airline pilots also need fuel for the flight to the alternate, as well the hold. Once planes start diverting, the traffic will back up, so that is the reason for the ground hold in San Jose.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2013 01:04AM by No Mo.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2013 01:29AM by No Mo.

Enterprise software, so given my 100 segments a year I'm doing pretty good, haven't had an issue like this in years.

And 105 minutes late, I make it to SFO. Alls well that ends well (when I reach In-n-Out anyway).

squeebee Wrote:
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> And 105 minutes late, I make it to SFO. Alls well
> that ends well (when I reach In-n-Out anyway).

Glad to hear it. Things usually work out. BTW, which industry do you work in?

NOTE to any and ALL parents traveling with young kids:

Ok i've done this plenty of times myself. I paid my dues.

BUT!: If you are traveling with kids and they're kicking the back of my seat for 6 hours, DON't expect me to be kind, polite or understanding. It's not going to happen.

I have two major pet peeves when I fly. #1 is kids constantly kicking the back of my seat. #2 is parents who ignore anything and everything annoying that their kids are doing. #3 is the whiney parent who keeps telling their kids to stop, but not actually doing anything to make that happen.

It CAN be done. I used to fly back and forth across the country when my kids were small. There are plenty of things you can do to help your kids not piss off everyone on the plane.

P.S. This is NOT the job of the flight attendant.

Let me add to this: What may look like to you as "my kid's foot just barely grazed the back of the seat, once, in 6 hours of flight," may FEEL to the person sitting in the seat like "some kid kicking the back of my seat for six hours."

I have never witnessed a kid just sitting there, purposely kicking. *kick* *kick* *kick* *kick* *kick* *kick* *kick* But I suppose it happens.

What happens is kids get restless, start wiggling around and pretty soon, an errant foot hits the back of the seat. When you are on the other side of that errant foot, it feels like an intentional kick. I will ignore it a couple of times, but if it seems like *kick* *kick* *kick* *kick* *kick* *kick* *kick*, then I will start to get nasty.

In such close quarters, every single jostle and movement has a ripple effect on everyone else on the plane. Self-awareness is really important in situations like that. When children are involved, I believe it is the parents' job to have self-awareness for the children who have not yet developed that.

Oh great, I'm flying to Oakland tomorrow. I sure hope we can land ok. My co-worker is picking me up for a tour of our companies' senior housing communities.

Funny story about taking your shoes off...A few weeks ago DH and I were flying from Houston to Frankfurt. We had to go though security again, since our ultimate destination was Poland. At the security desk, we all started taking off our shoes. The Germans security agents were horrified and quickly shouted, "No, not shoes. Leave the shoes on." They thought it was ridiculous that we were taking off our shoes to go through security. I explained to them that it was an American thing.

OP - I feel your pain. I've spent 2 weeks fighting with United to try and get the travel voucher they owe me from bumping us off one of our return flights. It's been a mess.

United stinks. They held us up at a small city asking over and over for someone to volunteer to get off the plane because they over booked the flight. No one volunteered. FINALLY, after about an hour of standing in line, they offered an incentive that was good enough for someone to volunteer to get off. We took off. When we landed in Washington D.C. I had to run full out to make my connection. When I arrived, out of breath, at my gate I got yelled at for taking so long to get there and being the last one to board!!! GRRRRRR : (

"United Breaks Guitars"

You can google/youtube it.

The most aggravating delay I had was flying out of Spokane to Nashville with a connection in Denver. We had one more baby on board than the usual number of flotation devices carried for flight. They told us they would locate an extra device for the flight and we would be on our way shortly. Then an hour later, they said they could not locate an extra device and asked for a volunteer to get off the plane. They had to keep upping the ante to get someone to get off the plane. Never could figure out why an adult getting off the plane compensated for one too many infants. So missed connection in Denver and ended up getting to Nashville at midnight instead of 8 in the evening and then had a 3.5 hour drive home. Just always at the mercy of the airline. That is why we have a two week road trip coming up. My car - trip is under my control!!!