In the last round, (here: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1013445), a poster named Hugh asked me if I believed there are any differences at all between men and women. Thread was closed before I could respond.

Yes, of course there are.
* There's the obvious physical difference, aside from the sex organs, men tend to have greater upper body strength. Women are natural climbers because our center of gravity is lower (in our hips, not in our shoulders).

* There's hormonal differences: more testosterone means higher sex drive and more aggression. More estrogen means less aggression and lower sex drive.

* There's socialized differences: This is usually the stuff we talk about in concrete terms. Every time someone makes a sweeping generalization, someone will pipe up with the outlier to refute that statement. I classify male privilege as falling into the socialized differences.

Is one gender smarter or more logical than another? I don't think there's any clear evidence. Also, the plural of anecdote is not data. :>)

But at the end of the day, I think we are all human beings who need to be loved and accepted and treated with respect. And I also think that pointing to physical, hormonal, or socialized differences to make excuses for dehumanizing (and dominating and controlling) others is just counterproductive and damaging to everyone.

I dont think broad generalizations about women being one way and men another, even if they are true, give us much useful information. 55% of women might have a certain trait compared to 45% of men, but the only time we deal with "women" as a whole or "men" as a whole is in our imaginations. The rest of the time we deal with an individual man or woman, and we might as well just get to know them.

Agreed. When you boil it down to individual people, we all want the same things, don't we?

Almost everything is a generalization. Women having bigger boobs then men, is a generalization, as I know plenty of women with small (but I still wish I could see them) breast, and lots of men with some impressive man cleavage, that I wish they would cover up.

Sorry dogzilla, I couldn't help going there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2013 09:54AM by forbiddencokedrinker.

It is hard for me to see a woman and not be drawn to the physical attributes that identify her as such. I don't feel that way with people who have other distinct physical differences, i.e. color, facial features or height, I consider myself to be perceptually blind to those, but with a woman I am not. I used to be bothered by this since I am married to a smoking hot babe who I consider to be my soul mate. I have long since dismissed the idea that I am less of a man because I consider women to be attractive, I feel that it only makes me hetero, not disrespectful.

I think that because these physical attributes are so apparent to me I do treat women differently. That is not to say that I put them on a pedestal(40 year old virgin), nor do I treat them with chivalrous disdain. I am simply more aware of myself and how I act. I don't think this makes me bad I think it makes me hetero.

It is hard for me to see a man and not be drawn to the physical attributes that identify him as such. I don't feel that way with people who have other distinct physical differences, i.e. color, facial features or height, I consider myself to be perceptually blind to those, but with a man I am not. I used to be bothered by this since I am married to a smoking hot stud who I consider to be my soul mate. I have long since dismissed the idea that I am less of a woman because I consider men to be attractive, I feel that it only makes me hetero, not disrespectful.

I think that because these physical attributes are so apparent to me I do treat men differently. That is not to say that I put them on a pedestal(40 year old virgin), nor do I treat them with chivalrous disdain. I am simply more aware of myself and how I act. I don't think this makes me bad I think it makes me hetero.


___________________

See how that works? There is nothing offensive about men finding women attractive, or men finding men attractive, or women finding men attractive, or women finding women attractive.

Thanks for responding. I should have started a new thread w/ my question to you, and I apologize to the OP on that thread.
I was just curious what your opinion was. I agree with you in all respects, except I think, in general, women are more emotional than men. It's not a weakness, it's just a difference.

...oh, and I think when it comes to parental instincts, women have very ingrained, deep, and abiding maternal instincts more so than men.

My totally anecdotal observations tell me that this statement is not always the case. I find it hard to accept something as fact if it isn't always fact.

Are you sure that you are projecting what you consider to be the societal norm on women and men?

Oh Lordy, please don't accept what I am spouting off as a fact..lol.. that's just my opinion. To anwswer your question, "yes" those are my opinions about what I feel are generalizations, just like Dogzilla gave her generalizations above. I agree w/ her/him, plus a few more. Opinions are like arm pits, everyone has one.

Another generalization again, right? Not always the case. And it is hard to study, because boys are not encouraged to display this type of behavior it is often not observed.

That being said, we do know that pregnancy/birth changes brain chemicals which can produce a maternal feeling and action. Many men become more paternal (trying to equal the word maternal here) when they have a baby to care for.

It is hard to measure nature vs nurture. People repress or display what is expected of them frequently.

Amen

Another generalization again, Right? Yes, but again my opinion. You don't have to agree. I'm not trying to convince anyone that I am right.

I'm not saying that your opinions are but, opinions can be very harmful.

Good point. Just, fyi though, you haven't harmed me in any way with your opinion. Thanks for sharing. I like to learning about others opinions and it has been enlightening Jacob.

"we do know that pregnancy/birth changes brain chemicals which can produce a maternal feeling and action. "

Oxytocin.

Men make the same chemical in their brains as well. It's called the bonding hormone and orgasm can fire it off. This is why people often tend to get attached after having sex. They're high on oxytocin.

A cite: http://www.jneurosci.org/content/32/46/16074

And another:
http://scientopia.org/blogs/scicurious/2009/11/17/oxytocin-lets-hear-it-for-the-boys/

I'm just not buying the "men are not emotional" argument. Like I've said in countless threads, I've seen some men throw down some epic emo meltdowns. Men feel just as much as women do.

Men do not, however, in general, express those emotions outwardly as easily as women do.

Is that a fair statement? Can everyone get behind it?

ETA: I don't have good parental instincts. I have no business having children. I know some men who make far better parents than I would. I don't think I can get down with that idea either. I do think that men and women have very different nurturing STYLES, but that doesn't mean that men are not nurturing. I think of raising dogs. When my BF lived with me, he used to make fun of how overprotective he thought I was with the dogs. I would get on him about being too rough with them or letting them get away with murder. ("What? They're not hurting anything?") He loved and nurtured and cared for those dogs as much as I did, but I had a helicopter dog-mom style and he had a laid-back-let-em-roam dog-dad style.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2013 10:41AM by dogzilla.

Yeah that's a fair statement.

Hugh Wrote:

> I was just curious what your opinion was. I agree
> with you in all respects, except I think, in
> general, women are more emotional than men. It's
> not a weakness, it's just a difference.


I'm trying to remember the article I read this in, but basically it explained that men and women are about the same emotionally, but women are more comfortable expressing more emotions. I think it also mentioned that in our society (American) it's more socially acceptable for women to act this way and expressing emotion is one of the reasons women tend to live a bit longer.

As far as the logical aspect goes, I'm going to draw on subjective experience that men can be just as illogical and emotional as anyone. It all boils down to the individual, not what's between the legs.

I'm sure I'll be labelled a sexist, but I am very glad that on average women think differently than men do on average. If not, I wouldn't want a deeper relationship with a woman. Sometimes it seems women are trying to make themselves be just like men in terms of interests, career, thought process and "intelligence". Why? That's lame to me.

Why is it lame to you?

Why shouldn't or can't women have similar interests, careers, thought processes and intelligence? What's up with the scare quotes around intelligence -- are you implying that women aren't intelligent?

Again, I'm not so sure women think differently, I just think men and women express themselves differently.

And I'm not labeling you (because I know what it feels like to be defined and labeled by someone else), but I am trying to understand why you think it's lame for women to consider themselves equal in humanity to the other gender.

because I like the differences. If a woman wants to be the same as men, that's up to her. But I won't be interested in her. My preference.

I don't understand.

Nobody wants men and women to be exactly alike and this is why I continued this thread, to acknowledge that diversity is what makes the world go round.

So if a woman likes football, has a full time job that she's invested in, is logical and thoughtful, is good with money, and is intelligent, and can fix her own car, you wouldn't be interested in her?

WHY is that lame?

Jesux-consider reframing your "I like it" to celebrate the diversity in ALL people, not just limiting it to a generalization between men and women. Sounds like a holdover idea from mormon culture.

It sounds as though you're trying hard to paint me as a sexist with your language ("has a full time job that she's invested in" etc as if I'm against those things).

You can claim yourself a proponent of diversity, but you seem to be trying to stamp out anyone who feels differently than you about gender issues. Go with that. Whatever.

I'm not trying to paint you as anything, I am trying to understand your point of view. I am most certainly not trying to stamp out ANYone.

You clearly said, "Sometimes it seems women are trying to make themselves be just like men in terms of interests, career, thought process and "intelligence". Why? That's lame to me."

So that's why I used the language ("has a full time job that she's invested in") because that would be a woman trying to make herself just like a man in terms of interests, career, thought processes...

Like I said, I'm not trying to point you out as an asshole, I'm trying to figure out what the hell your words mean when you put them in that order. In one post, you say women are trying to be just like men, like having a career, and that's just lame to you and in the next post, you act like you don't think it's lame for a woman to have a career. So which is it?

All I want to know is why it's lame for a woman to be on equal footing with a man in terms of education and earning power. And now I want to know why you refuse to answer the question.

(Psst. It's easier to control someone who is not as educated/"intelligent" and/or does not make as much money as you.)

For what it's worth, as a woman in a male-dominated profession, I think *most* men find women *more* interesting when they can relate to them on topics like work, "male" interests like cars, techno gadgets, and sports. Differences can be interesting as well, but being able to bridge the gap is invaluable.

Also, one can't feign interest in something they genuinely aren't interested in for long.

Pesonally, I think Jesux of Nazdaq is confusing "partners who can related to one another and balance each other" with "women want to be just like men." When you take a step back once in a while and really observe how some men act, it's a laughable notion that anyone in their right mind would want to be *just* like that.

ROFLMAO!

Thank you for the good laugh! Although to be fair, the same could be said for some women too! ;)