I am living with some friends as I wait to go to closing on my house. All my stuff is in storage and I am living in my friends unfinished basement.

I am going crazy in a dysfunctional family. My friend
uses a messy kitchen/house as a passive aggressive way of punishing her husband who is selfish and a jerk. She has been planning on divorcing him since the kids were small but now she realized that she can't support herself in the manner to which he has become accustomed. Twenty years ago I also lived in their basement after I got divorced. The kids were young then, 1 to 4 years old, and the kitchen was always a disaster. My friend would pile dishes and pots in the sink until they were as high as the faucet. I was forever unloading and loading the dishwasher. Since the sink was overflowing with dishes there was no way to even wash a pot without going through everything in the sink. And she had a dishwasher but it didn't get run or she didn't get around to unloading it.

Her two sons live at home and are 21 and 24. There is a 20 year old daughter at college who sometimes is there on the weekend.

She has never made them do regular chores and they do nothing voluntarily. Because the back up of dishes drives me.crazy I keep the dishwasher unloaded but they will not even put a dish in the dishwasher unless they are told and they will not clean out any pots they use unless their father is there to make them do it. They have to be told to take out the overflowing recycle bin or filled trash can. The daughter leaves her dirty tissues from blowing her nose on the kitchen table and all over the family room.

Basically they are spoiled have a sense of entitlement. The boys have a bathroom upstairs that is disgusting. There is a first floor bathroom and one does not lift the seat and drips pee on the seat. The other leaves the seat up and drips on the rim and floor in front of the toilet. Does my friends tell them to stop acting like children? No. She keeps wipes in the bathroom to clean up after them.

And the real kicker is she got a certification as a life coach several years ago. She tells people how to live their life, LOL!
Her husband wanted her to get a job and so she decided to be a life coach which cost him 16K in classes etc. She has 6 clients a month which means she talks to them each three times a month at 60 to 85 dollars a session. She worked full time until the kids were born and then worked full-time for three years during the last 25 years.


She used to complain about how her MIL did everything for her son and spoiled him but I sure don't see
that she did anything to make her children self reliant.

Growing up my sister and I had kitchen chores every day and we both had a bathroom to clean when we were ten. My brother had to take out trash and rake leaves or shovel snow if there was any. I always thought it was unfair because my sister and I did more work than he did and we would still have to rake leaves sometimes. When I was 13 my sister left for college so I got her jobs as well. I actually liked helping my mother and willingly did my chores plus I helped cleaning the rest of the house.

My friends kids pay nothing to live at home plus their father carries their cell plan. Another friend has problems with one son not doing chores and she turns off his cell phone when he does not do something after she has repeatedly asked him. I suggested this to my friends husband as he gets mad at the mess but he does not want the bother. He also thinks that he should not be his responsibility since he works full time and his wife does not. He said some things that make me wonder if he is planning on divorcing my friend when the kids get out of the house. That would ruin her plans big time.

I dont have kids but if I did I would not be cleaning up after them. I can't wait to get out of here. End of rant.

A pretend counselor with no accredited college degree or proven record of functional living.

Your friend was nice enough to let you stay at her place, so quitcher bitchin.

She can run her family and her life any way she choses.
Who are you to criticize?

If you don't like the way she does things why don't you move into a hotel.

Glo
Looks like my description hit a nerve with you, which part is it? I can and will have an opinion regardless of if I stay in her house or not. I am grateful for the lodgings and clean up to help out so I see how insane and dysfunctional the family is. I have known her for 30 years and put up with her attacks on me by not responding. She resents that I have a career track that pays well and the independence of being single. She isn't willing to work hard to support herself and she is used to her life style so she has trapped herself.

I do not say a word to her about any thing as a good guest should not. Are you suggesting I should be a sheeple and deny my logical thoughts? Everyone has the right to an opinion.

Your hosts have managed to raise their family and keep their marriage together - that is quite an accomplishment and more than you have been able to do.

Apparently, for the last 20 years everyone in that family survived the messy house you keep harping on.

Your opinions while using their hospitality are irrelevant.

You say this is the second time they gave you shelter, so you knew what you were getting into.

If you don't agree with their life style stop being a leech and a bitter bitch and MOVE OUT.

People who live this way are not just lazy or undisciplined -- they have serious emotional problems, and nothing is going to change unless they get help and really change their lives from the inside out. To someone else, it looks like they could just do a few simple things to make the situation better. They really can't.

I know how miserable it is to be in circumstances that force you to live with people like this, and I feel for you. But I think a lot of the distress you feel could be alleviated by realizing that they are really sick, and they're probably doing the best they can given their condition. In the privacy of your own thoughts, pity them, make fun of them, whatever, but don't let yourself notice every fault and judge it. Not because it's "wrong" to judge, but because it frustrates you and makes YOUR life harder. You can't help them, but you can help yourself get through it by managing your own reactions. This is what I've learned from living around seriously screwed-up people, anyway.

Either accept the gift of their hospitality with gratefulness or leave.

I agree that grown up children should do a better job of cleaning up after themselves. It's an ongoing battle in my house. More often than I like, I have to take away privileges to get my kids to do their chores. But it sounds to me like you knew what the living conditions were going to be like before you even moved in. If the situation makes you so uncomfortable then leave.

It is not easy to invite guests into one's home for a stay. Kudos to your friend for offering you shelter when you needed it and allowing you to see the weaknesses of her family life. It must be a little humiliating for her. Maybe she believes you to be a kind and understanding person and that is why she allowed you into her and her family's personal space.

Some 'friend' you are.

You are in need and she puts you up in her house no matter what the inconvenience to her or the embarrassment she may feel over the state of her house.

And in return you slag her off in a public forum.

Shame on you and your opinion.

When you are a guest in someone else's home it's not very nice to find fault with the hosts.

Are you quite sure you are this woman's friend?
You seem extremely resentful while using her hospitality.
With such "friends" who needs enemies LOL.

I think it's ok to be critical of her lifestyle and adult children.

It sounds like she's critical of yours. :)

You two sound more like sisters than friends.

Hope you can move on quickly.

K

You eat on dishes. You wash them off and put them in the dishwasher. You run the dishwasher after dinner and in the evening put the dishes away. In the morning, you have a clean kitchen! How hard is that?

I'll run against the grain of my upbringing and say that it's not the kids' job to do the dishes, though that might be a condition of living at home or a way to teach a work ethic. I'd want them to clean up after themselves though, and I would enforce that with extreme prejudice Actually if I were that guy, I'd do the dishes and get rid of the wife. What a loser she is. She must be awesome in the sack.

Hope you're out of that situation soon.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2011 09:08AM by Makurosu.

It is a strained relationship as people change from the age of 20 to 50. I chose a different path for my life. I believe my friend is unhappy and resentful in her life. You don't spend 25 years planning to divorce your spouse only to change your mind because you realize you you can't support yourself and not find resentment. I was blown away because she said she realized that EVEN if she had a client every hour of the work day (40 clients a week and she does not even have 3 clients a week) she would ONLY make 60k a year, which she feels would not be enough money. I support myself and have made due with less. If I had to live with her husband I would have taken the cut in lifestyle and found a new life. Her hubby makes about 200k a year. She has been certified as a life coach for several years obviously there is no money in it. I think her pride is such that she will not take a job where she will have to start at the bottom. She has a college degree that she finished before having kids. She came from a poor rural background and makes no bones about her white trash family so she has come far in life, and farther than anyone in her family. She is smart and liberal and is very different from the family left behind.

And it is silly to think I can't have an opinion because I am a guest. I do not criticize my friend. Her husband is always thanking me for cleaning up the kitchen. I then realized that my friend resented my help cleaning because this was her passive aggressive way of annoying her husband. I just find it hard to be in a kitchen that is a mess and I am amazed at how lazy her kids are.

They just battle out life on so many issues. She often falls asleep watching TV in the living room and I think it is to avoid watching TV in her own bed so she can avoid having sex with her husband as she goes to bed after he falls asleep.

I am caught in the middle of crazy family dynamics. My sister keeps saying -- remember it is THEIR crazy. When i am at the house I spend most of my time reading in my area of the basement as I don't want to cause aggravation. They said they didn't want money so I buy groceries. We used to be very close friends and I am the kids godmother. I feel sorry for my friend but she is not the kind of person who admits that things are wrong. She likes to be in control and have the right answer for everything. I could say the sky is blue and she would say it is grey.

To quote you raven...

"I do not criticise my friend"

I've re read your original post and it sure sounds like criticism to me:

"does my friend tell them to stop acting like children? No she keeps wipes in the bathroom to clean up after them"

"she tells people how to live their life. LOL!"

oh the irony, you are criticising someone for telling other people how they should be living their life in a thread that you started by telling us at length how your friend should be living her life.

Wow, just WOW!

So, she's narcissistic and won't put out in addition to not working or lifting a finger to do household work while her husband is away pulling down $200k a year. It's nice of her to let friends stay over, but I'm sure you have some role to play in the family drama she is creating.

I actually thought I would be helping her by keeping the kitchen clean as I would think that she was tired of cleaning up after her family. It would be a break but I realized that it was ingrained behavior in her marriage.

I don't think it is too much to ask teenaged and adult children to put their dishes in the dishwasher and to clean up the pans and messes they make in the kitchen. It is not like they are five, they are adults.

She has often offered people place to live in her house so I am not the only person to have the offer.

It sounds horrible. And I don't get this. If his mom did everything for him then why doesn't he expect his wife too? Odd. Kids in their 20's seem to be very lazy with household chores. I see it all the time. They are too busy on their phones, playing games, etc. to be bothered with cleaning up. They eat out a lot. I have one adult child who has some issues. But I stay on her. I decided I would only let up in regards to her bedroom- the rest of the house must be taken care of. In the decades ahead it will be worse as these kids will let their own kids be a mess.

The real issue for Raven seems to be that her friend refuses to get a divorce.

So she bitches about their house and their family dynamics which are none of her business.

The friend is smart enough to see that life would be difficult if she divorced now. Good for her.

Raven is the one with the problems.

Glo, you seem to be implying that it's a morally better choice to stay in a bad marriage than to get divorced - even though the children are now adults. That seems strange to me - how is it good for a woman to stay in a relationship if it's just for the money? You could argue that it's really none of raven's business, but that's not what you seem to be saying.

It seems like Raven thinks because she lives with this family that she is now Super Nanny and can dictate what they should or shouldn't do.

I've read nothing about abuse or serious problems. They don't live up to Raven's standards of hygienics, and since Raven is living for free with them, it doesn't hurt her to do the dishes.

As for the kids, are they working or going to school? The daughter sounds more like a weekend visitor than a housemate.
As for hubby, if he's bringing home 200k, then he should expect his wife who works 6 hours a month to do her share.

Having been a college student myself, I know that dishes can be a low priority with schoolwork and part-time jobs to fund school. My kitchen can look like a catastrophe when I get busy with work and other life priorities.

Honestly, it sounds like Raven needs to move out because she's meddling too much in the affairs of a family that seems to be functioning. Her friend is in a 25 year marriage, so if she's determined she's better off in it than out of it, it's her job to respect that decision.

Better yet, why don't they all pitch in and get a maid?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2011 11:42AM by axeldc.

where is this? & where is this coming from? Its, nice to have a place to stay.

people do have differing values. I really can see & hear some mormons who entirely believed that the older sisters' JOB, their ROLE, was the take care of silbings and the house. I really have met people who BELIEVE sincerely, that the children 'need to do their chores (in a suburban house, not a farm before child labor laws in rural lands) BEFORE they are 'allowed' to do their homework'! That's amazing

in some alcoholic families some poor child gets assigned the role to be everyone's servant- & clean up after everything every one else does that drinks- THAT's NOT RIGHT! its a good thing one poor kid hasn't taken that role or been assigned that role as house elf for everybody else. That would be the lowest person, who couldn't take time to do relationships or hobbies or school or work freely for themself- if it were a child. so that's not their job. & when they're starving they probably do clean a dish or find something to microwave on
or they'd be dead (to hear you describing it)

I think a young adults' job- their primary job- is to grow somehow professionally, emotionally, socially, explore skills, prepare for differing aspects of the job market, when it fails, recoup, come home, build back up, grow more skills, make a next plan, grow some more- re engage.
NOT do everyone's dishes. their own fine.

if a young adult did an entire house for an entire family that they didn't have- of cleaning- they'd never get to college classes or work with a co hort, or finish a lab, or have a part time job, or be with their friends... As a parent: I think that's not their job.

further- I've stood by it. even when something difficult was occurring (surgeries etc.) - buy paper plates, not make one of my kids some hideously obligated house slave. Especially throughout obstacles, not just despite obstacles- growing talents, academic performance, social & job skills, re engaged- NOT nesting behaviors- in their parents' house- engaging in professional skills, experimental social college courses - all that- attempting business, internships, working, those are the talents the thing in life that matter- for young adults.

not nesting behavior in a parents' home, which is another adults' established relationship/zone or habitat if you would. & it can't be assigned, ownership or obligation to it, relating to cleaning it cannot be designated to one damned member of the family (that's a child, young adult or whatever)

unless the mother & father are in a wheel chair put the house in trust to that kid & its their zone. or they come home to nurse someone trying to save the property from creditors since they have a CNA, or something like that.

....................that said, organized habits are nice. finding things easy to cook, wear, care for, put away- is nice. is it an aspect of fatigue, energy, despair, creativity alternate priority- that keeps some people's lives swept clean like a wind blew through it even emotionally & others hanging on in the way with their best intelligence. Is that not what we all do?

BTW I am all for the intelligence, a high level of intelligence in this time, not to divorce a working person with a 200,000 income with no viable means to alternate support LOL & I am all for not letting adult children go homeless LOL & friends too. Life can be disapointing especially when one's dreams for one's children & the economy make it difficult to find especially wonderful ways to use or receive the talents & personality you've been building all of their life. Assisting them in accomodating the possibilities- getting their hopes up -- building a comfortable home -- a life zone -- they can fall back in & lift off from in better days-- THAT'S the JOB of a mom of young adults. & its not easy. I really know what I'm talking about.

they need independence from you, they need to be separate from you, but to the degree they find a place in this economy they may still badly need you. if you slam them or denigrate them to dominate & control them, you further disempower them lowering their assets when you need to be lofting them, lifting them, assisting them in finding the positive. 17-23 part of the most difficult parenting but yea my second kid had a health issue first year of college & I let their tribe move in until it healed after a surgery- they needed close engagement & whoosh they needed to live at home but separate emotionally & be with friends, lover make a life.

this is really a difficult time & valuable. I don't think you should slam your friend

It sounds like the family hates to do dishes.

and gratitude for keeping you from being homeless and living out of your car? Are you helping, doing chores, contributing to utilities and helping out in any way? Pitch in instead of finding fault. Help out. Do you wash your dishes?

.

I am my friend are not mormon. Should have stated that. So she does not read this forum. And I do not make critical comments about her family to her or to anyone in her house. Maybe saying to her kids - please put your dishes in the dishwasher is critical but her husband tells them that and she does if she has just cleaned up and they leave a dish in the sink right in front of her. She has no follow through with the kids and with them being 20 to 24 it is a little late. When they were teenagers her one son said anything mom does only lasts.three weeks.

If I gripe to friends I do so on the phone when I am out of the house. Her husband controls the finances and always has. He has wanted her to work since the kids were in their late teens. At that time he did not make the kind of money he makes now. She has always been very involved with her church and volunteer projects but has not supported herself since she was 18 and19. She got married when she was 20. She has always resented that her husbands control the money and that is one of the reasons she wanted a divorce. I don't think she is a narcissist but her husband is. She does like to be right and is an ESTJ on the Meyers Briggs scale for those who know that.

I think like many women in a bad marriage she has become numb to her situation and pretends it is OK. I do not discuss divorcing her husband. I don't ask why she changed her mind after 25 years. I just try to lay low and help out around the house.

I was raised by parents who were very clear that we had to help around the house because we lived there. I think that is very reasonable. I set the table, filled glasses, served dessert and helped clear the dishes. My sister emptied and loaded the dishwasher. My sister and I helped with vegetables and salad. None of these chores kept me from being an honor roll student. I got pocket money by baby sitting and making crafts. I think I had it pretty easy but I was a hard working angel compared to what her kids expect which is that as adults of 20 plus that they have to do nothing and they don't have to clean up after themselves. I am grateful to stay here but it is also frustrating. Every family is dysfunction you just get used to your own but I just never dealt with this sort of on going passive aggressive behavior growing up. I have been divorced for 20 years and probably will not remarry as my marriage to a hypochondriac left me with a strong desire to not be in a house with a crazy person. And I think she and her husband have a crazy dysfunctional marriage.

Having taken in other family members twice at a very bad time in my life--I suppose they could have said the same things that raven said about these people.

This woman sounds depressed.

Raising kids isn't easy and being a single mother, like I was, my kids didn't do all the work they should have/could have, but when they got out on the job, they are some of the hardest workers and advanced very quickly in their jobs. My daughter even thanked me for teaching her how to clean. I said, "When was that?" She said, "I watched." Is it their job to raise themselves or was it mine? They took care of their rooms and I did the rest. It is actually much more difficult to train a child than do it yourself and if this woman is depressed, which she seems to be, that may be why things are the way they are. You can't be a visitor in a home and even come close to understand the dynamics of the family.

I am the only one who regularly does the dishes. I load and run the dishwasher and unload it nearly every day.

think you've been out of order criticizing, finding fault and analyzing the family you are staying with.

Thousand apologies, I didn't read the whole thread (I find many people don't have time for that) before I made my comment. It probably would have been a good idea to say that in the post. My error.

It's really nice of these people to open their home to you and not ask anything in return. Yes, doing dishes is contributing.

Must be a SLOW news day.
Everybody doesn't live the same way you want to. Get over it.

Two words: Hired Help.

I don't understand how anybody making 200K/year > greater can't hire a cleaning lady?

I don't clean anything willingly. Nearly everything I do or want to do is more important to me than cleaning. I do NOT want to look back at my like and remember the times I scrubbed stuff.

So, whenever I can afford it, I trade money and have somebody else do it. No big deal.

I do not consider manual labor ennobling, but I do consider a clean-ish house worth paying for.

I think what you say of your behavior is great. You try to be a helpful, unobtrusive houseguest, and you have taken your complaints to what should be a safe place to vent.
I wonder why so many people had their funny bone twanged by your post?
We'll never know the real reason. Could they be picturing their own kitchen sink, and feeling insulted that someone might think they are a slob? Could they also be playing PA games with their spouse, as a way to annoy him/her?
Nobody knows.

I did picture my own sink when reading your post. One half is full to overflowing, but at least everything is rinsed. LOL.

After work, the choice between relaxing and doing chores comes up and quite often relaxing wins. I can't fault anyone for putting off chores, I like to put things off too.

I am female, by the way. And I do subscribe to the thought that a jobless spouse would have a lot more time to keep up on the chores I routinely neglect.

Her husband is tight with his money but does not see why he should pay for house cleaning when his wife does not work. He makes a lot but they have a big house and a $2500 dollar mortgage and pay for full time colllege for the daughter and part time for one son. Money is his control issue and being messy is her revenge.

He was always critical of her housekeeping because he expected her to be like his mother who was the uber 1950s 1960s housewife.

I was very involved with the kids when they were young I helped plan and clean for most of their birthday parties and stopped by at least once a week. My friend and I were very close but had a parting of that closeness when my mother was dying of cancer and she would made bizarre and hurtfull comments. I spoke to a psychiatrist about it and she thought my friend was so depressed in her marriage with three young children that she was just lashing out at anyone. If I was not so close to her children I probably would not have remained in touch.

Getting stuck in someone else's dysfunctional family is no fun. I try to lay low. By not disciplining her children to clean she made sure the house was messy to annoy her husband. But now the adult kids expect her to do all the cleaning and I am sure she finds it depressing as is her marriage.

I feel sorry for my friend that she will never be free of her marriage. Yes she has time shares in Florida and Mexico and a huge house and a convertible car but she lives with a man who is controlling.

However I would like to be able to prepare food in a kitchen where I don't have to clean up just to have some clean counter space. And be able to wash the pan I used without unloading the sink to find the bottom of it. It is a huge beautiful kitchen with a sun room and lots of storage. It just really isn't that hard to put a dish in the dishwasher, which I run and empty so the dirty dishes can go in. My mother was not a great housekeeper by the standards of the 50s and 60s, her counter tops had clutter and the dining room table was her desk for paying bills but the dishes and pans got done before going to bed.

I wanted to see how it played out before responding.

At the end of the day, I only have one thing to say to raven:

You are not Mormon (not even ex). Your friend and her family are not Mormons (or ex). So all of this board space was taken up today discussing your friend's messy house, bratty kids, bad marriage and your judgmental attitude . . . because . . . why??

;o)

"Raven" is a perfect example why having houseguests for an extended time is never a good idea.

Her friend lets her stay in her home of the kindness of her heart while Raven is resentful and badmouthing her.

Not only that, she also interferes in the marriage by making herself look good at the hostess's expense ( = the husband thanks Raven for making a show of cleaning up).

The hostess seems to be blissfully unaware what a competitive and selfrighteous snake she took in.


Raven's behavior and statements show a severe lack of character.
Let's hope the friend wises up and kicks her judgemental ass out asap.