Hayduke started a thread with the same theme and I didn't want to hijack it. I had a similar experience recently and it absolutely confirmed to me why humans made God up.

I was asked to take photos of a 4 year old girl that has had a re-occurence of neuroblastoma and will soon start treatments. The survival rate for a re-occurence for this type of cancer is bleak. Though nobody verbalized it, the reason we were taking these photos is because this girl may not be alive much longer.

This girl has not had a moment's peace in her life. She began treatment at about 18 months and never really stopped having some form of treatment since then.

Although I'm not a believer, my first gut instinct was to plead to a higher power for help. It was at this moment that I could feel how strongly the human desire is to appeal for help, and circumstances like these are why I think we created god. All we can hope for is modern medicine to intervene and work some "magic".

A smart observation on your part. I agree with you.

(And I love your screen name, LOL.)

I call it the "Help Mr. Wizard! Impulse". "Tooter the Turtle" is an old cartoon show where the titular Tooter would get himself in jams and end up calling out, "Help, Mr. Wizard!" And with an incantation and the wave of his wand, Mr. Wizard would bring Tooter back to safety.

We all hope someone will save our ass, will fix the problem, cure us, etc. We learn it in childhood. Our parents protect and rescue us and fix things, so why not an even more powerful invisible parent in the sky? So much of what people say about their religious beliefs centers around God helping them. Heck, the basic principle of Christianity is being saved.

Help, Mr. Wizard, I don't want to be dead forever! Help, Mr. Wizard, my life is crap! Help, Mr. Wizard, I have problems I can't solve!

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up, no doubt. It's interesting how that impulse never leaves.

I think the impulse can be even stronger in adults because we realize, oh crap, WE'RE the grownups now who are supposed to fix everything. Isn't there someone to pass the buck to?

Yes, and it grows a stronger and stronger the closer we get to death. I'm 42 and and I can definitely feel the strain of knowing life is quite finite and short.

Drizzle, drazzle, druzzle, drome, time for this one to come home!

Huh?

Got it, thanks!

Humans have been doing this sort of thing for thousands of years. They are simply trying to understand nature and the universe and in their minds there must be some kind of creative energy that controls the elements, thus they invented spirits, gods, magic, etc. When there's a famine humans prayed and offered sacrifices to the rain gods and spirits for rain. When they needed warmth, they offered sacrifices and prayed to the sun gods and spirits for sunlight.

I agree. I find it interesting that the impulse is still the same 1,000's of years (and mountains of scientific evidence at our disposal) later.

CTRringturnsmyfingergreen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree. I find it interesting that the impulse is
> still the same 1,000's of years (and mountains of
> scientific evidence at our disposal) later.

Look at this from the viewpoint of an ignorant, illiterate
tenant rice farmer in the South Asian hill country. He
sees the little river near his hut sometimes flood its
banks, ravaging the village and perhaps killing people.
And at other times the stream dries up to a trickle and
the rice fields begin to die from lack of irrigation.

One year his infant son drowned at the stream crossing,
and in another year his only water buffalo broke its
legs in the embankment mud and had to be slaughtered.

Obviously there are invisible powers regulating the
river and the crossing -- but what are those forces?

I taught math and Science in just such a place -- with
students who had parents exactly like what I described.
How are such people to make the mental jump, from pure
ignorance, to rational understanding, without recourse
to writing, reading, teachers, etc.?

Of course they will attribute all the inexplicable events
to supernatural powers, demons, spirits, etc. That is
the beginning of Science, 10,000 years before Aristotle
and his philosophizing peers.

UD

I know, you're articulating my point well. I have the same impulse in 2013 as the Asian rice farmer in 24 AD.

When I first began reading here, the number of exmormons who are now atheists was truly shocking. Pitch Joe Smith, walk away from the church, but quit believing in ANYTHING of a divine or even spiritual nature seems harsh, even 2 dimensional.

Tscc never understood the central tenent of Judeo-Christianity- a world that was created "good" in every sense, but a world that became broken through shattered vessels, original sin, a fallen angel or whatever allegory a person comprehends. That creates the need for redemption, but Mormonism doesn't need it. Every sucessive ordinance creates reliance on the church itself, its community and the individual to mend, "restore" the brokeness. Of course in an organization rife with symbolism, a cross is repugnant to Mormons because JS and his 5-6 generations followers just don't see the need for it.

If you're atheist and you're convinced you've never wronged another person, intentionally or not, and you also don't feel as if you've ever received the short end of the stick or ever been hit with it or even been an innocent pedestrian of the universe, you are, as I see it, remarkably blessed! The rest of us need a place to take our brokeness to, and humanity's and, yes, nature's. Eventually everyone gets the final diagnosis, feels the plane falling or sees the head on driver. In Gethsemane the Christ, the son of God, sweated and prayed, "I don't want to die this way," and we don't have to be ashamed to feel the same.

armtothetriangle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> If you're atheist and you're convinced you've
> never wronged another person, intentionally or
> not, and you also don't feel as if you've ever
> received the short end of the stick or ever been
> hit with it or even been an innocent pedestrian of
> the universe, you are, as I see it, remarkably
> blessed! The rest of us need a place to take our
> brokeness to, and humanity's and, yes, nature's.
> Eventually everyone gets the final diagnosis,
> feels the plane falling or sees the head on
> driver.

No, it's not that we atheists do no wrong and feel no suffering, it's just that we deal with it directly. If we harm someone, we seek forgiveness from that person rather than appealing to the benevolence of an unseen third party. If we are suffering, we find comfort from actual people and the solutions of the real world. Human problems have human solutions. If we broke the world then it's up to us to fix it, no to plead for a deity to fix it for us.

armtothetriangle

I guess we disagree. I think it's quite easy to ditch all religion once you study the machinations of a young religion (mormonism) and how it's created. I think it's intellectually dishonest to be able to reject one and not at least consider that the other, older one (chrisitianity) might not be made up also.

I did the pleading thing for my mom 20 years ago. Guess what? She still died of cancer at age 42. That experience definitely influenced my thoughts on this, but it's so much more than that. It's years of reading, thinking, and understanding that the christian books don't appear to have any more credibility than the mormon ones.

I'm not even sure what "2 dimensional" thinking means, but I think it's more childlike to reject one crazy set of teachings, yet sustain other similarly crazy and magical teachings. That's just my opinion, though.

...so in response to your statement

"and you also don't feel as if you've ever received the short end of the stick or ever been hit with it or even been an innocent pedestrian of the universe, you are, as I see it, remarkably blessed!"

Yes, I definitely feel like I received the short end of the stick with my mother's death. Your statement is a non-sequitor. What does that have to do with being atheist? Like stray mutt said, we deal with on our own and don't expect magical intervention.

I'm not trying to argue Bertrand Russell with you, and I'm not trying to convince you to change.

The concern I have is for the doubters in JS and tscc, the newly inactive or resigned, and the stigma that existed in my days of becoming "a son of perdition" with everything that connotates, like 'evil' or 'damned' or 'lost', anything that says leave-the-one-true-church-and-God-hates-you. It's the worst of the lies Mormonism perpetrates. The entire concept of "worthiness" and the converse of "unworthiness" is reprehensible. We're imperfect, we know it, but we didn't move outside of grace when we left the LDS. Part of my original post was that Mormons don't see the need for redemption or if they do, they think they wouldn't have it if it weren't for JS.

Sealings so that people can be with loved ones in the afterlife- who or what decreed this? The masonic lodge? That's egregious psychological manipulation. Keys or no keys, tscc does not control eternity. I read a post from someone whose former bishop said his or her baptism and the Holy Spirit were cancelled. But mainstream Christianity teaches that Christ never 'unbaptizes' you, and only you yourself can renounce your baptism. They can revoke the "priesthood" but tscc doesn't control the Holy Spirit, never has or will. Psalm 51: "And take not your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of your salvation and uphold me with your free spirit." I'm way over the 95% confidence level, approaching 100%, that David was neither baptized nor confirmed, and probably not bar mitzvahed either for that matter, but there it is. My suggestion to the person who was released by the bishop is to take his or her baptism and confirmation and whatever faith is left and live it somewhere else. And wherever that journey takes them, I hope they find greater peace than they've known before. No one should profess or work for or even stay in something he or she knows is false because essentially they are threatened and afraid.

Whew- didn't think I could write that one without profanity

I'm out too, complete nonbeliever. Still, last year I went for a trail run while on vacation in an unfamiliar area. I get out having a great time but become uncharacteristically lost. As panic sets in what's my first inclination? Yeah, pray! Took me a couple of minutes but I got calmed down, realized how ridiculous I was acting and that getting out that situation relied on me and no one else. Eventually yes, I made it it out alright, with the help of some nice folks who I ran into. No, when it was all over I didn't thank God. But I learned a good lesson. Besides learning not to go running in strange woods alone, I realized just how much those supernatural yearnings are ingrained into me. A learned response.

I always picture pre-historic man watching lightning and wondering who was throwing fire at him. He'd wonder why this being was angry with him and what he could do to appease the situation.

Humans deal with their fears, inadequacies and sense of loss of power/control by creating in their brains a Super Sky Daddy or Super Sky Mommy who will love and protect them, which includes giving them immortality. It's a primitive need that is inherently rooted in anxiety fueled by thoughts of death, rejection and annihilation--anxiety that is particlarly unique to homo sapiens since they are one of the few higher-evolved primates (and, indeed, most likely the only one) who is inherently self-aware and who thus knows of (and who thus fears) their ultimate destiny with the Grim Reaper.

Having one's own custom-made God around makes big people feel better--but Santa Claus does the same thing for little people.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2013 10:45AM by steve benson.

I'm not convinced that there ever were many long-lasting
matriarchal societies (in contrast to matrilineal ones,
which survive even to this day).

For the most part, the ancient goddesses seem to have required
a male consort, and they did not impregnate themselves.

But there may have been at least one very ancient hold-over
from the period before animal herds were fully domesticated.
The Egyptian bovine goddess Hat-hor had no concert, and yet
she had a son, Horus, who sent the solar orb through the sky;
or, alternatively, a bull-calf son, Ihy, who guided wanderers
through the wilderness to eternal life (see Aaron's god).

Neither of Hat-hor's divine sons appear to have a father --
an oddity that would be understandable in a very ancient
matrilineal society, such as that of the early hunters and
gatherers of pre-dynastic Egypt. At a time when wild cattle
still roamed the fringes of the Nile valley, these folks
were hanging up cattle skulls around their sacred encosures.

Later on Hat-hor was promoted from being a local cow deity,
to having the supreme attributes of an universal sky goddess.
She literally held all the stars and planets in her infinite
body. Other Egyptian deities were pretty much confined to
the Nile valley, in terms of their mythology, worship, etc.
But Hat-hor, as the Universal Deity, had temples in foreign
lands -- an honor later ursurped by Isis, who was something
like an evolution of Hat-hor.

So, perhaps yes -- possibly the Stone Age Egyptians were
matriarchal and had not yet quite figured out that bulls
were required to impregnate cows. Their successors, the
dynastic Egyptians, remedied this oversight by becoming
patriarchal and by giving their goddesses consorts.

UD

The unknown. Give it a name. Make it wake and talk like your ideal self. Worship it. It's as helpless as yourself at times. It's as magnificent as yourself at times. Oh, it's you!

It's kinda scary but, take responsibility. Take control. It's you, not God.

Exactly! I've been preaching this for years!

I have more power in my two hands than all the Gods and Goddesses ever imagined. I can pick up a rock, throw it in the ocean, catch a fish, build a bridge, remove a tumor, program a computer, create a mass communication means connecting the entire world, etc etc etc etc etc etc.

Name one verifiable thing ANY God has EVER done like that. Go on. I dare you.

iflewover Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
...
>
> Name one verifiable thing ANY God has EVER done
> like that. Go on. I dare you.


"Go tell the Spartans, stranger passing by,
that here, obedient to their laws, we lie.

Of course the imaginary deities of Olympus were not looking
down upon Thermopylae, holding the 300 hoplites accountable
to their sacred oaths and the Spartan legal code -- but
a compelling argument could be made that we would all be
speaking the Emperor's Persian today, had they not lived
up to those oaths to imaginary deities.

Only few allied ships were sunk by the Divine Wind out
of Japan at the end of WW2, but a compelling case could
be made for the argument that those pilots wearing the
rising sun headbands would not have prolonged the fight
with their own suicides, had they thought Amaterasu was
a bogus sun goddess.

It is not the the imaginary deities themselves that have
such great power -- it is us, who create them, who give
power to such symbols -- such awesome symbols.


"Now I am become Death,
the destroyer of worlds."
‎(Bhagavad Gita)
J. Robert Oppenheimer, July 16, 1945, New Mexican desert

UD

Ok, Uncle Dale. So you said that much better than I and with very compelling examples/visuals to boot.

Thank you for the assist!

You are becoming one of my favorite posters on here BTW. Not bad for a kid from Idaho Falls:)

So, I considered this very question as I was recovering. Absent of influence (away from family & without friends) I pondered whether or not I believed in GOD or a god.

I arrived at this conclusion:

God is the all knowing by definition who can look into our hearts and know our thoughts.

It occured to me that every human that seeks a god is basically looking for that deep relationship of someone/thing that knows them as they know themselves.

To me, this is what people are looking for - to be known, deeply.

I moved forward, accepting that I had been superficial in most of my relationships throughout my whole life. I put church obligations, career and eternal salvation ahead of my relationships. I worked and continue to work on being "known" better by knowing others better and conversely those who are seeking the same reciprocate.

Although not perfect, I have much deeper relationships with far fewer people.

If I want to be known better - then I must reveal more of myself.

Just what I figured out on my own.

Fluff

Martin Buber explained well the relationship between Man and God in Ich und Du (I and Thou): http://archive.org/stream/IAndThou_572/BuberMartin-i-and-thou#page/n1/mode/2up

Buber was a philosopher which can make the reading a little difficult; fortunately the treatise isn't long. At the risk of sounding something like "endure to the end", wade through his linguistical logic through all three parts. Buber was Jewish, eventually Zionist. Ich und Du was published in 1923 and first translated into English in 1937.

CTRringturnsmyfingergreen, you did get the short end of the stick, and so did your mother. And the Syrians are too, and the victims of 9/11 and the MMM and every life ever damaged by hunger, poverty, disease or injustice or natural disaster. We are wronged in every way we can be, and we can be pitilessly creative in the wrongs we perpetrate. Dear friends of ours found their beautiful 18 yr old son hanged in their closet. He'd graduated high school two weeks before with an armful of honors, but he also was bi-polar. His medication was recently changed. We could discuss neuropharmacology and the risks of antidepressants in a manic state, in all clinical and logical terms, and the wrongness of his death persists. Call it evil or the effects of a broken world.

We were given a Messiah who didn't reestablish paradise in Missouri or Iraq or Jerusalem or Russia. Instead of a perfected world we got a place to take the brokenness regardless of whether we received it or inflicted it. Also through Him we received a set of instructions for how to lessen the wrongs we do to each other in this world. And for anyone who accepts it, there's redemption, and redemption equals hope. But institutionalized religion has raised a multitude of stripes. The church in Revelations is the bride of Christ, in line I think with the Jewish tradition that the Messiah would have an unchaste bride. Not just tscc, but all churches are inevitably going to fall short at some point.

The central problem though of Mormonism isn't that JS was a fraud or the shaming used on decent people, meaningless rituals or manipulations or misappropriation of funds, it's that tscc more than any Christian denomination stands between individuals and the Creator. In Buber's sense, it perpetrates I-it relationships, between you and God, you and the church, you and the brothers and sisters. Look at how quickly and thoroughly the membership turns on anyone who leaves; even families can relegate children, spouses, siblings, parents to 'its' without membership in the church. No other church is so doctrinally determined to drag God down to a state in which He functions as the church dictates, making Him into an 'it'. Mormonism still teaches "As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may be", the ultimate undeification of the infinite. The wholeness of an I-Thou relationship isn't necessary, it's discouraged because that relationship is as anti-JS, anti-Mormon as it comes.

Of course Buber isn't proof but his argument serves to explain why we believe, not why we "invented." Two quotes from I and Thou:
“The atheist staring from his attic window is often nearer to God than the believer caught up in his own false image of God.”
"Or do you seriously think that the giving and taking of signs halts on the threshold of that business where an honest and open spirit is found?”