Hey everyone, its been a little while.

I was curious as to how others handle these two arguments from the LDS apologist camp.

1. "The leaders of the church are not perfect and God allows them to make mistakes so that they can learn from them."

I consider myself an average guy. Human, and therefore prone to make mistakes. I get frustrated, forget some important date, and occasionally procrastinate. To me, these are things that fall under the category of "mistakes" that are a result of my human nature. Never once have I instituted polygamy, taught that blacks were inferior to whites, preached blood atonement, or trick millions into believing that I translated an ancient record. These are all things that sail straight out of Port Sensibility, and land on Isla de la Batshit Banana Sandwich Crazytown. If you claim that you are recieving direct revelation from a supreme being, I dont understand how you can be given ANY leeway when your teachings totally bungle your religion and prevent it from making any significant progress. Can you imagine how TSCC would have turned out if they never ostracized the black community?


2. "Even if I learned that the church was made up, I would still go because it has been a positive influence on my life."

I used to adhere to this, but it bothered me that I was having to give validation to something that was untrue. I can handle something nebulous that requires faith to believe in. Take belief in God for example. When it comes right down to it, I dont know, and I cant expect anyone else to share my belief. I feel that its something that cant be proven or disproven. You believe in it or you dont, and so long as you respect other peoples beliefs, we can all get along just fine. TSCC is another matter. It can, and has been easily refuted thanks to the internet and some brave folks that have come out to share their experiences. I have a huge issue with not being able to be genuine. Trying to promote something that I know isnt true goes greatly against my character and I dont like doing it. Its one of the main reasons why I started my process of leaving TSCC.

Id like to know how others have handled these questions and any other thoughts you may have.

pathist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
These are all things that sail
> straight out of Port Sensibility, and land on Isla
> de la Batshit Banana Sandwich Crazytown.

I loled.

I wish I had a perfect answer to these questions, but unfortunately some Mormons will jump through neverending mental hoops to justify the church to themselves no matter how simple and logical a point you make.

1. If that's true, then whatever shall we do about the teaching that God will never, ever, ever allow his true prophets to lead the church astray? In fact, go back to TSCC's definition of "prophet." Why even have one if he gets to screw up as a "learning experience" for the sheeple?

2. The problem here is what TSCC claims to be: the only true church on the face of the earth, the only way humans can become like God and acheive exaltation (whatever that means nowadays). If it's not true, then one is free to find positive, empowering teachings and practices ANYWHERE -- not just in TSCC. Besides, the entire rationale for practicing Mormonism is NOT that it makes you a better person, it's that Mormonism is God's only approved religion.

You can be honest, charitable, kind, loving, spiritual, and live a totally good life all by yourself. You don't need Mormonism to show you how.

There's nothing here to counter. These are not apologetic arguments. Not really.

For #1: No one is asserting that a prophet has to be perfect. It's not that those so-called prophets make mistakes that makes them frauds; it's that they don't do anything prophetic. There are no fruits to judge them by. Where are the prophecies? The seeing? The revealing? Nowhere..

For #2: the same argument can be made for scientology, as well. It's a non-starter.

!) You are willing to believe that the Mormon God--through the Mormon Church's prophets, seers, revelators and presidents--allows these supposedly inspired men to make mistakes in claiming in the name of the Mormon God things to be true that are, in fact, not true and that therefore lead the members of the Mormon Church astray?

2) Even if you learned that the KKK--like the Mormon Church-- officially teaches and has officially taught doctrines of White supremacy, you would continue to be a member of the KKK because --like the Mormon Church--the KKK has had a positive influence in your life?

If the answer to those questions is "yes," then you are a woeful wimp and a moral coward.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2013 08:33PM by steve benson.

1. "The leaders of the church are not perfect and God allows them to make mistakes so that they can learn from them."

Yes, I don't expect ANY prophet to be perfect but I expect a prophet and his fellow apostles to teach the church correct doctrines and principles and not lead the people astray. Teaching false doctrine is a sign of a false prophet. I also expect the "one true church" to be a shining example to the world. "By their fruits you shall know them." If their fruits are so rotten that you can't even eat them, then I know its not from God (then list polygamy, blood atonement, adam-god, etc).

These "imperfections" aren't small. They are very egregious and far too many. The scale has been tipped in my mind. God's one true church would not allow its prophets and revelators to preach to the world that people of color are inferior. It would not ban them from participating in saving ordinances and intentionally not proselytize to parts of the world because they are not white. These men would be inspired to teach love and acceptance to all god's children, not just the "white and delightsome."


2. "Even if I learned that the church was made up, I would still go because it has been a positive influence on my life."

The church wastes members time learning about things that have nothing to do with creating a positive influence in one's life. Mormons spend most of the time being taught that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God, the church is true, priesthood authority, obedience, feeling the spirit, praying, reading the scriptures, attending church, temple work for the dead, and so on. None of these things are principles of being a good person. Its like they spend all their time learning about "the church" but not about being a good person or good principles. Just look at a church manual. 90% of it has nothing to do with being a good person.

In addition, I've come to the conclusion, that compared to other churches or non-profits, LDS Inc does very little "good things." Most of church money and time is spent on things that aren't actual charitable causes. Its money is all spent on temples, advertising, shopping malls, real estate, monuments, etc. Members time is consumed in meetings and rituals. Members have very little time for the family or actual charitable causes.

Also, the church teaches many things I disagree with. Anti-gay. Anti-feminist. Very judgmentmal, Guilt tripping. Superficial appearances. And so forth.

1. Joseph Smith went far beyond normal mistakes. 2. If you need religion in your life, there are churches out there which give.more and take less.You can also believe in gay rights and science in many religions and there is less guilt.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2013 09:21PM by bona dea.

<< If you need religion in your life, there are churches out there which give.more and take less.>>

That's well said, Bona..

pathist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> 1. "The leaders of the church are not perfect and
> God allows them to make mistakes so that they can
> learn from them."

If I have tolerate mistakes in the supposed divine guidance provided for my life, I will go with mistakes generated by myself as fully vested in my personal future, over the mistakes generated by others who don't have to live with the consequences.


> 2. "Even if I learned that the church was made up,
> I would still go because it has been a positive
> influence on my life."

It is possible to be a person that MORmONISM can actually help to improve, those people are real MORmONS (LOSERS).

Plus 1.

Yep, if I have to follow dictates, they're going to be mine.

OK, I'll try to counter the apologist basic argument here:

#1 Explain then why God handled Moses and Daniel the way he did.

#2 An organization built on a lie and a con, requiring hefty membership payments to a corporation is somehow a positive influence for my life and family? You gotta be kidding me.

I no longer get into Mormon discussions with believers. If members ask me what I believe or why I don't believe in TSCC any more, I tell them. No debates, no two way discussions. Not with believers. No point.

The same arguments would apply to a Magic 8-ball.

As far as #1: I can mislead the church as well as they can. When do I get a turn?

Or does God deliberately tells the "prophet" what can only be described as outright lies, in order to see if we can figure it out?

As for #2: please explain why you need a church to give you positive influences on your life. I don't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2013 09:22PM by slskipper.

pathist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...
> 1. "The leaders of the church are not perfect and
> God allows them to make mistakes so that they can
> learn from them."...
>

I have heard this argument made in defense of Brigham Young
doing nothing to bring about justice in the case of the
1857 Mountain Meadows Massacre. As late as 1869 Brigham's
own son and Brigham's own Counselor in the 1st Presidency
were still blaming the whole tragedy on the Indians.
Then, suddenly, Apostle Snow brings up the possibility that
Mormons were involved in the Massacre, and Brigham sees
the light, and implicitly admits that his own adopted
son, Elder Lee, was a major force in the 1857 murders.

So ... If the apologist argues that God withheld this
revelation from President Young for over twelve years,
then what kind of a god is the Mormon deity, and what
sort of an oracle is that god's "Living Prophet?"

I conclude that such a deity would be an imaginary, false
god, and the self-proclaimed prophet a latter day con man.

If the would-be apologist wishes to dedicate his life
and his children's lives, to following, supporting and
enabling this sort of divine massacre-info-withholding,
program, then I'd say that such a decision exposes the
apologist either as a blind, fanatical cultist, or as
a world-class religious hypocrite.

UD

#1 - Old Germans often made the same argument defending Hitler: he was only human, so he made mistakes. But look at all the good he did: he ended the Depression in Germany, he fostered family values, he got rid of petty crime, he provided jobs for everybody, he restored pride in the country, and he built the Autobahn.

#2 - see my article at http://packham.n4m.org/better.htm "FMA: 'Mormonism makes me a better person'"

1. That is exactly what a cult member would say

2. That is exactly what a cult member would say.

Answer #1 assumes God has no interest in his chosen representatives getting things right. The LDS god never steps in to say, "No no no, numbskull. That's not what I said." Instead, he lets the saints wander off in wrong practices and beliefs. "Ain't no big deal," says Elohim. "I'll sort it all out in the next life." If the "prophets" can lead the church down roads of bogus doctrine, then what's the point of prophets?

As for #2, my response is, "Fine, but it made me mentally ill, even though I was a good Mormon."

1. "The leaders of the church are not perfect and God allows them to make mistakes so that they can learn from them."

Well goody for them. I hope they do learn. But the only time I hear about how normal their human flaws are is when they get called out on mistakes.

But even if they WERE right all the time, I would still have the right think for myself, to make my own decisions and run my own life. Because learning to think and act for yourself is an important part of enjoying your life and part of your own personal development.

2. "Even if I learned that the church was made up, I would still go because it has been a positive influence on my life."

You have the right to make your own decisions for your life. I'm wondering why you would continue to follow a religion if you knew it was based on fiction. Do you really believe that good can come from following a deceitful organization with flawed leadership?

Everyone makes mistakes.I realize that and do not expect perfection,but I do expect the founder of my religion to refrain from constant lying,sexual addiction and exploitation,bank fraud,serial adultery,and participation in black magic.During the nearly
two thousand years from the death of Jesus to the time of Joseph Smith you would think God could find someone with better character to restore the gospel.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2013 12:52AM by bona dea.

#1: Alright, if they make mistakes, why is it so taboo to point out those mistakes. Remember what Dallin Oaks has repeatedly said: "It is wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true." Members are also limited in their ability to vote agains leaders who get it wrong.

At the same time, missionaries and youth in particular, are urged to exercise "exact obedience" to their leaders' instructions. This seeks to absolve Mormons of their responsibility as human beings to evaluate their moral obligations personally--and carry responsibility for the outcomes. If it is all on the leaders' head, people can do unspeakable things (see Milgram, Stanley).

If there are no controls on the leaders, it takes a great deal of public pressure to get them off a wrong course.

Additionally, Mormon leaders don't have a particularly good track record on historical truthfulness, scientific understanding, racial justice, or gay rights. Why hitch yourself to their wagon that continually goes over the cliff?

#2: Maybe it doesn't work for that person as well as they think. How do they know that they couldn't be a good, and perhaps better, person outside of Mormonism.

In addition, this person ignores that their continuing support of the lie may be damaging to others who take less well to being lied to in such a fundamental way, or who are otherwise abused by LDS leaders.

We have a responsibility to be considerate of the needs of others--not just ourselves. In some ways staying in the LDS Church may have been easier for many of us. We could have used our knowledge to work the system, so that it "works for us." But that only perpetuates injustice for others. That ain't right!

1. The problem isn't that leaders aren't perfect, it's that we are told to follow them as if they are.

2. Hitler and Naziism had a positive influence on some people.

2. "Even if I learned that the church was made up, I would still go because it has been a positive influence on my life."

The mormo-centric "Positive" influence disappears as soon as you see through the deception. You could still go there, but you couldn't comfortably serve, minister or teach if you had moral inclinations.

A more suitable course of action would be to find influences that do not require the fear of being found unworthy.

1. The leaders of the church are not perfect. I don't expect perfection, but I do expect an attempt to emulate Christ by leaders who have influence and in many cases control over peoples lives. I do not consider, polyandry, bank fraud, declaring oneself King of the World, threatening your wife with eternal damnation if she doesn't allow you as many virgins as you can coerce, coercing virgins, plagiarism, sending your goons to run your friends out of town for disagreeing with you and destroying the property of your former partners to be Christ like behaviors. That isn't even close to a full list and it's only JS. Don't get me started on BY.

2. The church has been a positive influence in my life. So has watching Oprah, but I'm not going to send her 10% of my gross income.

1. "The leaders of the church are not perfect and God allows them to make mistakes so that they can learn from them."

There's a difference between a mistake like losing your temper and teaching false doctrine. They also teach that the Lord would never allow his prophet to lead the church astray. Teaching false doctrine is leading the church astray. They can't have it both ways.

2. "Even if I learned that the church was made up, I would still go because it has been a positive influence on my life."

GBH: “Each of us has to face the truth of the matter—either the church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God or it is nothing.”

1. If I play a friendly game of poker, or watch Schindler's List, the Holy Ghost will flee from me, and I am not entitled to personal revelation.

But when a man takes other men's wives as his own or dabbles in the occult, he is still capable of receiving revelation for the world?

I don't ask that prophets be perfect, but they should be AT LEAST as "worthy" as I am.