In a thread about the Plan of Salvation last week, someone asked me to explain a bit more about how studying the lack of logic in the PoS got me out of TSCC. Here's one example that was always on my shelf:

So we were all hanging out in the pre-existence and God presents this great plan of his. He says we are going to have to prove ourselves to be worthy of returning to him by making good choices.

And, as well all know, there must needs be opposition in all things. If there is no sin, there is no righteousness. We can't choose good if there is no evil.

Then Lucifer pointed out the obvious, and what did he get for his trouble? He get cast out FOREVER, and in the process fulfills the most necessary part of the plan. God's whole idea was that we had to choose good over evil - if Lucifer had not rebelled, there would be no evil, and therefore Lucifer's "everybody makes it" plan would have been the only option.

His punishment for this is eternal damnation. He'll never get a body, never get a chance to make any other choices for himself, never get a chance to learn or grow. He will be the most miserable, reviled and hated creature in the Universe for all of time. And because of that, we all get a chance to choose the right and be exalted ourselves.

On the flip side, Jesus was totes in on the plan. When he was alive and preaching around Jerusalem, he knew who he was. He knew he was God's son. He knew he was the savior and redeemer of mankind. He knew what his part was. He knew that there were billions and billions of souls, his brothers and sisters, who would be royally fucked unless he played his part. So he allowed himself to be TEMPORARILY killed for the sake of literally every other person who'd ever exist.

And yet Jesus is the one we worship? It seems to me that Lucifer is the one who actually made salvation possible, and he doesn't get to come back to Heaven and hang out with God after his part is played. Lucifer's sacrifice was much greater than Jesus'. God's plan would not have worked unless somebody rebelled.

Why would God NEED to have a plan that required some of his children not making it back to him? It's not just that we are all given the choice and therefore we all carry the responsibility to make it back ourselves. God's plan made it NECESSARY for Lucifer and 1/3 of the hosts of heaven to never even have a shot at exaltation. What kind of God is that? How is he all-powerful and all-knowing if the highest possible score is only 66% - and that's only if EVERY person who comes to Earth makes all the right choices.

Moreover, why do we vilify Lucifer when what he did was actually necessary to fulfilling God's plan and not his own?

Hm. I never thought of it like that before, but its true. If Lucifer had never put forward his plan, then his plan would have been the only thing on the table!

And really, Jesus' sacrifice pales in comparison to Satan's! All Jesus did was go through some pain, die for a little while, and then gets to rule heaven for all eternity. Lucifer, on the other hand, gave up his shot at heaven and even getting a body, in order to make God's plan work!

Lucifer is clearly the good guy in this story, and God is clearly the villain. Jesus is neutral at best!

Yup! The PoS is chock full of plot holes just like this. It was trying to answer these that led me out of TSCC 5 years ago, rather than learning any of those pesky facts about church history or science or anything. :)

To be fair, Lucy gets free Super Bowl tickets every year, the best part in the temple movie, great deals on used cars, and all the free legal advice imaginable. Jesus, meanwhile, gets to show up on toast, and model Birkenstocks.

Which would you rather have in your wallet?

Add to that the fact that, after being completely rejected, Satan came back and of his own free will and accord, offered Eve the forbidden fruit. He had to do it to make God's plan of free agency possible, because Jesus certainly wasn't about to.

Then Jesus went and started a church intent on brainwashing children and keeping information hidden from its members to prevent them from making the wrong decisions.

WTF?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2013 05:38PM by kimball.

This is what happens when clever but superficial minds (JS et al) try to grapple with complexities of theology.

Lucifer also had the choice he could have chosen the lords path as well. But god knows all his children and knows everything and knew which path would choose satan had his chance but still wanted to take the gliry of god to himself.christ never wanted to take the glory from god.

Yeah, Christ was content to stand back and watch while Satan did all the dirty work and took all the blame. He also understood that God was extremely egocentric, and the best way to get on his good side was to suck up to him.

No, Lucifer COULDN'T have chosen God's plan. That's the whole point. Without a devil, God's plan couldn't exist. Without Lucifer's rebellion, the devil couldn't exist. It's a catch-22.

Factoid 1: The Mormon Church has defined Satan as, “The devil [who] is the enemy of righteousness and of those who seek to do the will of God. http://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/devil.p2?lang=eng&letter=d

Factoid 2: Mormons are taught in general conference talks, lesson manuals, church magazines and in their canonized scriptures that Satan is the “enemy to all righteousness” (See Mosiah 4:14; Moroni 9:6; Alma 34:23: and Acts 13:6-10

Factoid 3: Mormon theology teaches that the Devil will do NOTHING to help you and I in mortality so that we can return to live with God in the after-life.

Factoid 4: God states In Moses 1:39, “For behold, this is my work and my glory – to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.” According to Mormon theology, Lucifer does not want God and/or Jesus to succeed in being successful with this plan.

Factoid 5: In the Mormon temple endowment ceremony Satan has a prominent, almost heroic role. Here is an exchange between Elohim (God the Father) and Lucifer (the Devil):

ELOHIM: Lucifer, what hast thou been doing here?

LUCIFER: I have been doing that which has been done in other worlds.

ELOHIM: What is that?

LUCIFER: I have been giving some of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil to them.

ELOHIM: Lucifer, because thou hast done this, thou shalt be cursed above all the beasts of the field. Upon thy belly thou shalt go, and dust thou shalt eat all the days of thy life.

LUCIFER: If thou cursest me for doing the same thing which has been done in other worlds, I will take the spirits that follow me, and they shall possess the bodies thou createst for Adam and Eve!

Factoid 6: In the Mormon temple Lucifer is doing what “has been done in other worlds.” Translation: he's been tempting Adam & Eve so they will fall and come to know good from evil; and tempting them to successfully partake of the forbidden fruit and become mortal so that God can now begin to send his pre-mortal spirit children to earth via Adam & Eve’s posterity.

Factoid 7: All Lucifer had to do to thwart God’s eternal purposes and really be the enemy to all of God’s righteous plans was to do the following: NOT tempt Adam & Eve. You see, Lucifer admits that he is doing that which has been done in “other worlds.” All he had to do to get back at God for casting him and 1/3 of the hosts of heaven into outer darkness forever was to NOT help him in the Garden of Eden by tempting Adam & Eve.

Factoid 8: What we learn in the Mormon temple endowment ceremony is that Lucifer is really NOT the enemy of all righteousness but rather, he is the righteous helper and friend to God. Lucifer is making sure that God’s plan succeeds.

Reminds me of this video: (Extremely NSFW!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_a6RjR_AHY

Excellent Video

Another reason the plan of salvation is total B.S. is for Gods plan to fail all Satan had to do is NOTHING!

God sends Satan and his minions to the very Earth he is going to send his children.... what a Dick.

For Gods plan to work Satan has to do his thing. If Satan really wants Gods plan to fail all he has to do is nothing. If he never tempts Eve, the fall never happens.

No matter how many times God starts over with a new Adam and Eve as long as Satan stays away from them the fall will never happen.

God needs Satan for his plan to work.

A collection of scripture to help you tell when something is from Satan:

http://packham.n4m.org/satan.htm

+1
Required reading

Richard, that is an excellent essay. It is a great counter to the concept of the "burning bosom" as a marker of truth as well.

You've figured out who God is.

Another way is to watch what he DOES, not what he says.

Not a nice guy.

Hmmm, that's right! according to Mormon doctrine, Lucifer made the greatest sacrifice.

Somehow this reminds me of a video game I played once (fairly common theme, really) where a great time in the past god fights Satan and both die. In the present, you revive god, and everybody is happy and worships him, but things are a little off, and it turns out that god is really the devil.

And I just told that story very poorly, oh well...

And the biggest fallacy of all is that such a story has any reflection on reality or truth . None of such being contained in that dogma .