I've made an embarrassing and vast mistake. I've gone from believing that we'll survive death to the opposite, but I now believe that I've jumped to an unwarranted conclusion about the extinction of consciousness at death.
I need an academic research assistant to help me so that I can once and for all clarify the nature of the problem. My conclusion is that what happens to us--if anything--after death isn't knowable, but there is reason for optimism, rather than pessimism.
Are there any academics here who would like to help me with research and writing?
Either the Universe will contain Some consciousness after you pass away, or it will not.
Either the Universe will survive your death, or it will not.
Determine the proper answers to those two sets of probabilities, and defend your reasons for arriving at whatever conclusions you may happen to reach.
That should set up some ground work for pondering whether or not any (or all) of your personal consciousness will survive your death.
Somewhere along the line, be prepared to answer the questions, "What is the relationship of my individual consciousness to that possessed by other sentient brings," and "What is its relationship to the sum total of ALL consciousness present in the Cosmos?"
That should be sufficient metaphysical homework to keep you occupied, while you're awaiting counsel from the RfMers.
This is a brilliant quote. It also provides comfort. I have recently begun to believe that perhaps no part of my sentient being continues to live on after death, since I have no memory before the early 1970s, but I know that time and humanity existed before I was born. It's troubling to think there is nothing more, but then I am reminded, as was Twain, that there is nothing to worry about since there is no worry. What's actually far more troubling is someone waiting to kick my ass for smoking, drinking, getting high, and having gay sex.
A question I've asked myself when pondering this question is why is it important. Why should we want to exist outside of the life we're living now? Why is it not enough to live this life and be happy? For me I've had to wonder if I want this because I've been told I should want an afterlife.
I like to fall on the side of optimism myself with a healthy flair of science. I see beauty in the idea that we are energy in constant flow, changing from one form to the next. Does it really matter if memories and identity don't follow?
"Why should we want to exist outside of the life we're living now? Why is it not enough to live this life and be happy?"
If there is something outside of "the live we're living now"...that would mean that there's something NOW outside of our everyday pedestrian awareness--that we are even now not necessarily limited to this hide-bound, outwardly-focused unit that we think is "me." The pursuit of happiness, as defined by the searching for and manipulating of outside circumstances to fit our liking, would be seen as a myopic displacement of our 'real' search for happiness, which would be the discovery of what we really ARE now. If "that" survives the death of the body, then it also transcends the 'life' of the body, right here and now.
And if we are not now what we currently take ourselves to be, then our whole so-called life with all its dramas is based on an illusion. If it's a dream we'd wake up from at death, then we can wake up from it now, or at least become lucid in it. If that's the truth, wouldn't people want to know it? (Answer: mostly not. They'd want to continue in the Matrix with its dreambody payoffs.)
I'm one of the ones who have been able to break out of the mormon mold completely. I'm not ashamed to say I have experimented with hallucinogens in a safe environment. Perception and everything is altered in such a way that you can become convinced that there IS something else out there. Trust me when I say though that this experimentation is not something you do lightly or with people you don't trust. If you're on a bad place mentally it carries through and can make the experience horrid. Can it expand your consciousness? Yes. In ways that, unless you've experienced it yourself, you can't even begin to dream. Does it provide proof that there is something outside this life? not really. If anything it has served to help me realize that (for me at least) the purpose of life is to live. To live, to love, to experience.
If you already have your conclusion, I don't know why you are looking for a researcher. I wouldn't think you would get legitimate academic research assistants if they need to tailor the research to support your preconceived conclusion. I'm not sure if you really meant conclusion or hypothesis.
We know some verifiable facts:
Our knowledge is the network of of neurons in our brains.
If parts of the brain are damaged, we can prove the location of our knowledge (memory, thoughts) are altered.
Thoughts require the brain network.
Consciousness is the result of brain network interaction and information organization. When neuron activity reaches a critical level there is consciousness. Brains of lower some lower species of animals with brains do not exhibit consciousness. Other animals do. This is because their brain either reaches that critical level of interaction or it doesn't. You can tell when a dog or human is not conscious. The required neuron interaction is not "running" when someone is unconscious.
When we die, the brain decomposes which removes the brain network that enables thoughts.
Anything else is speculation or made up. Of course you can't disprove made up things.
hmmm You seem so sure about all that, Dagny. So I guess I have to believe you are right. No, wait, that was what I used to do.
I guess it is possible that your first verifiable fact could be true. But it could also be that that amazing network of neurons in our brains is the repository of our knowledge for our minds to utilize, if we can think of "the mind" as something which continues on after death.
I'm not sure what your second verifiable fact means, possibly because of a lack of subject and verb agreement. I think we have all heard of damages to specific sites in the brain that make a person unable to call a fork, a fork, or even to speak at all. Does that mean those thoughts are lost? I think the person is simply unable to communicate the thought with words.
I'm not sure we know how much a person is thinking even when they are unconscious. At least the nonconscious parts of the brain are still functioning or else they wouldn't continue to breathe, etc.
Finally, I guess I have to say if I HAD to choose one side or the other, I probably would have to check the NO box on the life after death questionnaire but who knows? Not me.
notyersister Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > hmmm > You seem so sure about all that, Dagny. > So I guess I have to believe you are right. No, > wait, that was what I used to do.
No, I'm not sure, but that is all that the evidence supports - for now. Maybe we will get more evidence someday that is actually verifiable. > > I guess it is possible that your first verifiable > fact could be true. But it could also be that > that amazing network of neurons in our brains is > the repository of our knowledge for our minds to > utilize, if we can think of "the mind" as > something which continues on after death.
Sure, it could be possible but you are making that up which is exactly the point I was making. It might also be possible that our thoughts are the result of Zoloof the space alien's science experiment.
> I'm not sure what your second verifiable fact > means, possibly because of a lack of subject and > verb agreement. I think we have all heard of > damages to specific sites in the brain that make a > person unable to call a fork, a fork, or even to > speak at all. Does that mean those thoughts are > lost? I think the person is simply unable to > communicate the thought with words.
Seriously an is/are mismatch prevented you from understanding that? Sorry about the confusion. I am not able to look up studies now but brains can have duel personalities. Brains that have had areas removed have completely lost the function of that area. If you think the evidence suggests they simply can't speak, then you need to explain the cases where complete memory is lost or consciousness is lost when parts of the brain are damaged. We know which areas of the brain store different types of information. The information is stored in the nodule/pathways/interaction of the neurons.
> I'm not sure we know how much a person is thinking > even when they are unconscious. At least the > nonconscious parts of the brain are still > functioning or else they wouldn't continue to > breathe, etc.
This is true. You are talking about the brain stem. We have strong evidence that associates certain kinds of thought with areas of the brain. Consciousness is not generally associated with brain stem activity.
> Finally, I guess I have to say if I HAD to choose > one side or the other, I probably would have to > check the NO box on the life after death > questionnaire but who knows? Not me.
I don't disagree with you. I just don't see any reason to make things up. I apologize in advance for grammar errors. I don't have a lot of time to reply adequately.
Good luck with your research! In my opinion it's an unknowable thing what, if anything, happens to our consciousness when we die. We just have to find out for ourselves. Be careful, though. Speculation on this subject causes religion.
The bacteria that infests you body will survive your death, and that is technically a part of you. Sure, those little buggers don't share your DNA, but you can take comfort that an important part of you will live on. Hell, there are more bacteria cells, then animal cells in your body (they are a lot smaller), so a big part of you will survive.
Like you, I am an optimist about after life continuance. My mother had a NDE 2 years before she died and that led me to several years of research into NDEs, both what are published as books and what is available online in scientific journals (google scholar is a good place to start, and will lead you on further if you want). I suggest you start there, and then do the same with the opposing view, that death is it. I am sure your research will be fascinating, but I doubt it will answer you question. That will be your decision. And I really really wish you well with it!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2013 12:13AM by fluhist.
GP, if there is hope for consciousness to continue after the body dies or decays, it is more likely to be found through/in technology. Look up the idea of the singularity. I'm not a rabid Kurzweil fan, but I think there is merit in having society take the idea seriously and study whether consciousness is entirely material (science based) and thus likely "copyable" to technology for continuation of the person's id/ego/self awareness after death.
If the study shows that the consciousness is not explicable entirely in material/physical terms, then one can assume there is a metaphysical, dualist nature to us. I personally am skeptical, but if it is true, then that could mean the survival of consciousness by the dualistic nature of our self.
Either way, there is reason to be optimistic.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2013 11:59AM by Jesus Smith.
Dagny posted some interesting thoughts. I have thought about life after death quite a bit since shedding organized religion.
The concept of an after life is part of some of the world's oldest cultures. We are the only species on the planet that can actually wonder about such things.
The question is why should our (humanoid) pattern of existence differ from that of all other life forms on the planet? To me its an all or nothing case. Either everything that is 'alive' on this planet goes on to some other state of existence upon death or nothing does. I find it hard to believe that the spiders I killed in my garage yesterday now exist in another form on some other planet in the universe. Or that the weeds I tossed into the trash have a spiritual form. It just doesn't make sense and it doesn't follow the patterns of existence we can observe. It is actually quite exhilarating to contemplate that, indeed, this planet and its inhabitants are unique in the universe. Think about that - but not too much because you might overwhelm yourself.
Bottom line for me - I was born, I will live, I will die on this sphere. I will create a life I am happy with and live as long as I possibly can. I will not alter my body unless absolutely required to keep me alive. I will shed all relationships with fellow humans that don't contribute to my happiness and sense of well being.
I'm not sure you can research this subject scientifically. You'd need to kill someone, bring them back to life, and then interview them afterwards. or you can interview people that are already dead. Good luck with that one. You can talk to live people that have had NDEs, but you never know whether they are crazy, deluded, or whether they were just dreaming.
The following is full of if's, but here's my attempt at a logic train to a possible, but unknown probability after life:
1. The laws of physics have to be precisely tuned to allow the creation of certain atomic elements as building blocks of life. If there isn't a near infinite multiverse, then maybe this universe was created by an intelligent creator in another universe. 2. If that creator was also responsible for our human creation, or planned historical events leading to our current form, then possibly that creator shows some of themselves in us. That is, a work of art you make says something about you. Therefore, since we understand love, compassion, and hatred, it isn't a bad conjecture to think our creator might understand these things as well as they might understand how the human brain functions. 3. If that creator understands love and compassion, and those traits are part of them, then they might understand that many humans do want an afterlife, and therefore create an afterlife out of compassion for them.
I made an extremely amateur calculation of the probability of the above logic train being true, and came up with .1%. Not much, but still not zero. I would prefer a .1% chance of survival of a family member in danger far more than 0%.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2013 07:32PM by raiku.
I have no idea if we survive death or not. No one knows. And those that claim they do are just giving you their opinion because no one has come back to tell us.
With that said, my dear beloved husband died suddenly less than 6 months ago. He died before his time. Our time together was cut shot and so was his life so for these reasons, I certianly hope there is something more. But I just don't know.
Last spring, I got a call from my lifelong best friend's son, saying his mom was in the hospital and could I possibly come out to their state (about 1,000 miles away). We were on the road the next day.
My friend has always been an agnostic, and it is fairly apparent that she doesn't have much more time left in this life, and she is obviously frightened at the prospect.
Just before I had to leave to return home, I had an inspiration. We had saved for two years back in the early 90's to travel to England and meet in London. We had dreamed of doing this since we were schoolgirls, but as adults we finally made it happen. She had arrived there first and met me at Gatwick Airport. We had a marvelous time seeing London.
Back to the present: I took my friend's hand and told her, "I expect it will be just like you meeting me at Gatwick. I'll look for you and it will be just like old times, all over again."
True? I dunno. But it has apparently given her something to hang onto. The head nurse on her wing at the care facility (whom I got to know when we were out there) called me about a week after we got home (I am on the list of people allowed to get information about my friend, so they know who I am) and she told me, "V. told me what you said, about meeting on the other side, just like in London. You have no idea how much that thought has cheered her up. Thank you for doing that." She called me long distance to tell me this!
As I said I haven't a clue whether or not this is likely to happen. But just thinking about it cheers me up too, so where's the harm?
When you are getting old and circling the drain, I think it's a good idea to go for all the good stuff you can.