I suppose part of the reason he came out and said that leaders have made mistakes is to put a disclaimer on all past and future "mistakes"...we're all human and humans make mistakes.

The problem, as somebody else said in this forum, is that "we" (church members) are expected to treat "them" (the G-15) as if they are supernatural even when they are not.

I read on here that one of the talks yesterday had one of the GA's saying that the words spoken in conference were directly from god, yet then you also have a GA saying they are imperfect and make mistakes. So, which is it, you are either a conduit for god who is perfect so no mistakes should be possible, or you are imperfect and your message is therefor subject to that imperfection and is subject to the exact same scrutiny that should be applied to anything any human says and no one should simply take your words as being "from god".

You can't have it both ways.

I think what they're trying to say is that at General Conference they speak as prophets, in their everyday lives they speak as men?

I know that I am surprised to hear any of them admit an error.

What the LDS community wants is the prestige of infallible prophets without accountability for the actual lack of it.


And then there is the terminological problem: the "Inf" word is completely suggestive of the Catholic church - so another "I" word is chosen: "Inerrant".


So much nonsense ...

Not acting as an apologist for Catholics, but the Pope's infallibility is limited to two situations:

1. Pope makes an "ex cathedra" (from the chair of St Peter) pronouncement on faith or beliefs

2. Pope makes a declaration jointly with all the bishops of the world on a matter of faith or beliefs.

Option #1 has been used only twice, in the 1850s (Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception*) and in the 1950s (Doctrine of the Assumption** of the Virgin Mary). Option #2 has never been used. Papal statements and encyclicals outside of these scenarios do not carry infallibility.

* this means that Mary herself was conceived without original sin by her parents Anne and Joachim. With respect to Jesus' parentage, Gabriel's message to Mary in Luke 1 is known as the "Annunciation", and the "incarnation" refers to Christ being part God and part human. Celebrated on the biologically correct date of March 25. Many, probably a majority, of Catholics erroneously believe that "Immaculate Conception" refers to the conception of Christ without Mary and Joseph having had marital relations.

** this means that Mary's body was taken up physically into heaven at the end of her life.

(the above two beliefs are both Papal proclamations that Catholics are required to believe, because of infallibility).

You have to see them as fallible humans when it suits them— when they need a pass for wrongly saying this saith The Lord — BUT otherwise you have to act as if everything they say is revelation from the very mouth of God. In other words their always right. Obey everything.

This type of thinking is the basis for the famous Marion G Romney quote of Hebert J Grant saying LDS will be blessed for obeying the prophet even if he was leading them astray...although he was quick to add that the prophet never would.

It's utter BS.

You know, the farthest this idea would go would be for one of the Old White Men to say that The Coprolite are aware that "mistakes have been made," then implore us to "come back to the Alter of God."

Afterward they'd all go back to the post-conference gathering and fist-bump, and say things like, "Boom, Uchtdorf! We nailed it!"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2013 11:46AM by cludgie.

Maybe that was the big surprise - that they admit that errors have been made. The trouble is they didn't specify what errors they were talking about, so it wasn't at all helpful.

I agree. The Mormon Church is a 100% human construction.

I had a talk with my mom about just this subject. She eventually admitted that some things the GAs teach might be incorrect, but, in essence, we should blindly follow them anyway, because God will bless us for following "his" servants, even when they're leading us astray! What?!?

Follow something that you know is wrong, because somebody who says they speak for God told you to??? Shouldn't them telling you to do something you know is wrong tell you that they aren't actually speaking for God!

My dad had the exact opposite opinion. He thought that you should pray about everything the GAs teach, because they're only men, and might be making a mistake. If you feel it is wrong, then you shouldn't do it. I pointed out that that didn't match up well with what the Morg actually teaches, where, if you're "revelation" doesn't match what "the brethren" are saying, then it isn't from God. But I don't think my dad is really a Mormon, although he protests very loudly that he is!

mistakes were made but the prophet will never lead you astray.

To expect anything of substance this afternoon or any time soon from the G 15 is to expect too much...but it would be earth shaking should a GA "grow a pair" and actually bring the "truth" into question...but that would presume they actually care about being forthright and courageous and forgo their continued dining at the trough. Not very likely IMHO.

Ron Burr

They admitted error but still said it is our fault if we find those errors to be problematic. I realize the leaders are not perfect, but I do expect them to be honest. I don't think being honest is the same thing as being perfect. All that was said was that the leaders make mistakes (some of which are considered serious sins that require church discipline) yet there is no mention of exactly what the mistakes are and no conversation about any of the issues. Just believe, don't worry about imperfect people, don't be one of the weak who fall away and never come back. There is no sincerity in their message. And to top it off we were told they needed us....to use us. Nothing has or will change in spite of the phony "understanding" of those of us who have valid issues. Everything was still turned around to be a fault in those who think the history and the things that were lied about is problematic.

Exactly. I don't think this is as much of a triumph as some may think. This announcement will ironically only strengthen tbms, imho.
For one thing, as you pointed out, it squares the blame back on the "doubters" and labels them as "unwilling to have fath" or "hard-hearted", and unpatient, as "the answers will come...but in the future".
On the tbm side of things, it acknowledges wrongdoing, yes, but doesn't go into any of the specifics (mistakes may have been made -- what was done? by who?). Now tbms can't feel deceived once they find out about these "wrongdoings" (such an understatement), as the brethren have acknowledged them! I know that the feeling of being deceived and lied to is a major reason why many tbms have left tscc. And again the "answers will come" line only perpetuates the idea that the real truth is a test of their faith and that they need to endure.

I sure hope I'm wrong, and that this isn't the last we hear on this topic during this conference..

+1

No Mistake about it; they infallibly solicit money.

They have no problem saying mistakes in general were made, but try to find an admission of any specific mistake...

They'll never admit their OWN mistakes, but they do occasionally admit that PAST Morg leaders made a specific mistake. Brigham Young's Adam=God doctrine stands out as a good example. They still throw plenty of B.S. around even that issue, though. And they sweep it under the rug wherever possible. But when you do pin them down on it, even most apologists will say that doctrine was a mistake.

Whenever you have a church such as the Catholics or the Mormons, its all about power, control and fear.
(Gregory VII): DICTATUS PAPAE, a list of 27 title headings entered into the papal register in March 1075. The most important of the articles were those that claimed:

a. the supremacy of the Roman pontiff over the entire Church, including the eastern branch ('That the Roman pontiff alone can with right be called universal/That his name alone shall be spoken in the churches') and rule over the episcopate, which entailed the right of deposing and reinstating bishops (a right that could be exercised even by a legate), the power of organizing diocese, the right to be the ultimate judge in ecclesiastical cases, and A CLAIM TO BE EXEMPT FROM HUMAN JUDGMENT.

b. The power to issue canon law

c. the sanctity of the pope qua pope (through the merits of St Peter)

d. Supremacy over the princes of the earth ('That he alone may use the imperial insignia/That of the pope all princes shall kiss the feet'), with the practical and revolutionary claim 'that he may absolve subjects from their fealty to wicked men.'

a and d are pretty scary.