I can never stop wondering if some or many GAs know or suspect that the church is not true, or at least seriously question.

I read a post on another site that said a full third of them do not believe it.

Thoughts?

Personally, I cannot fathom that at least a few of them don't harbor some serious doubts, but like so many of the rest of us, keep those doubts quietly tucked away.

I always wondered why the GAs bought forged documents from Mark Hoffmann if they were so all-fired inspired. They must know somewhere deep down. But they want to believe, so they ignore that knowledge, that's my take on it.

Yea, that was a question I had a hard time deciding. I think the question that is more important to me is "If they realized it wasn't true, would they have the integrity to leave?" I'm just as stumped.

The question is irrelevant. It's kind of like asking if the CEO of Chevrolet knows they make shitty cars.

Just sayin'...

Ron

+1

The LDS church is very rich with hundreds of busnisses. Their
income represents a very large corporation. My guess is they
do not want to kill the goose that lays the golden ege.

Willful ignorance. GAs have a nice deal: secure employment with good pay and fringe benefits, along with the adoration of the masses that comes with being viewed as God’s messenger. The largesse of the church extends to their families who receive plum business contracts, church jobs, etc. They have too much to lose to admit fraud.

However, they frequently refer to “these are the last days”; all while making long term investments in malls, Hawaiian real estate, artwork, etc. That’s enough evidence for me that at some level they don’t believe the own rhetoric.

Matt. 19: 21
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

I don't see the church following the above advice much.

The top line people in an MLM know exactly what is going on.

How often do those guys stand up and say 'it's a scam and I'm outta here'?

They have to know its false. Either that or they are being deceived by some unseen force (I'm not sure I believe that).

There is a great movie about the Worldwide Church of God. The leaders came out and admitted they were following a false faith. They were very brave in doing so. If you are interested you can watch it here: http://sourceflix.com/called-to-be-free/

Heresy has a good anology going.

My close relative was a GA (now deceased). He did not believe in the ideas of the next man in line to be prophet. He did not believe in this man's motives, or his faith in God.

I feel strongly that the GA's don't believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, or Brigham young, or any of the other Mormon prophets to follow. The GA's are very busy making apologies, altering history, hiding the financial records, switching around the manuals, re-interpreting the scriptures, making false promises, and putting a more popular spin of things.

The GA's know EXACTLY what they are doing, and why!

I strongly suspect that most of them don't believe in God, either. Otherwise, how could they bear false witness without fear of God's punishment? These liars don't honor Christ, either, as they put Him in the back seat to Joseph and the present-day so-called prophet.

Instead, these arrogant men tell God what to do. IMO, that is blasphemy.

The GA's are anti-theists. (Atheists leave God alone, but the anti-theists use the concept of God to make money and manipulate others.

forestpal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Heresy has a good anology going.
>
> My close relative was a GA (now deceased). He did
> not believe in the ideas of the next man in line
> to be prophet. He did not believe in this man's
> motives, or his faith in God.
>
> I feel strongly that the GA's don't believe that
> Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, or Brigham
> young, or any of the other Mormon prophets to
> follow. The GA's are very busy making apologies,
> altering history, hiding the financial records,
> switching around the manuals, re-interpreting the
> scriptures, making false promises, and putting a
> more popular spin of things.
>
> The GA's know EXACTLY what they are doing, and
> why!
>
> I strongly suspect that most of them don't believe
> in God, either. Otherwise, how could they bear
> false witness without fear of God's punishment?
> These liars don't honor Christ, either, as they
> put Him in the back seat to Joseph and the
> present-day so-called prophet.
>
> Instead, these arrogant men tell God what to do.
> IMO, that is blasphemy.
>
> The GA's are anti-theists. (Atheists leave God
> alone, but the anti-theists use the concept of God
> to make money and manipulate others.

That's a very good point, Forestpal.

I think it's more accurate to say that they don't know it is true.

Anybody with half a brain cell know it's false. But they know that they don't have anything that they can offer a productive world. So they must perpetuate this myth in their own little corner of the world.

Hinckley was very intelligent, and his remarks were interesting when he was asked questions like whether he is a prophet. I think he probably believed in God and he loved his Mormon heritage, and I think he admired some of Smith's leadership talents. But I'd be very surprised if he was a believer. In fact, I'm sure he wasn't.

It's Packer I wonder about. Packer loves to feel superior to everyone. Everyone who meets him feels his disdain. Is that because he truly believes in his narcissism that he is the declarer of God's inflexible word? Or is it because he's just using the Church to beat people down because he hates himself so much. I don't know.

But I think a lot of leaders are so puffed up in their own self-importance that it hasn't even occurred to them that the Church might be false.

I'd often imagined that there is a certain level in the church, that - once you achieved it - you'd receive a special briefing, explaining that it's all made up, beginning with the truth about JS, and following on down through the years - that finally, you would know all the facts about church leaders, actions, etc. That, once you'd receive this information, then you would be able to join the other GAs in declaring the official lines, because there would be no doubt in your mind - you KNOW it's not right. But power corrupts, and the more power one has, the more power one wants. It's a true addiction.

As for demonstrating integrity by leaving the church if you have doubts, or know it's not true, etc., those WITHOUT integrity are those who do stay in the Church. Those with integrity and who honor truth have left. It is a church of hypocrits, cowards, and unthinking sheep.

I doubt they have doubts. My best guess is that they all know it is a crock.

But they have to keep up the facade so as not to disillusion and cause heartbreak to the TBMs, nevermind their big salaries and the total adulation they constantly receive.

I think this special group of liars are totally convinced they actually have power.

Since it would raise my opinion of human nature a little in certain directions, but I honestly think they're deluded, brainwashed fools...

SLDrone who still visits us now and then is convinced they believe...

And my background as a former drunk leads me to conclude people are capable of incredible feats of self-deception, particularly when it's reinforced by the essentially closed LDS culture...

I mean drunks--and there's evidence alcoholics are brighter on average than ordinary folks--honestly believe they'll get away with something that is killing them and devastating those around them... You can take my word on that one; I've been crazy in the past, and that has given me the gift of spotting and unmasking other whackos...

And shoot, look at what Galileo ran up against in the Inquistion; there was nothing really in his discoveries that threatened Rome's status; he ran up against "cognitive inertia" where people believed one thing and absolutely refused to consider another.

It's called denial. They ignore or refuse to believe an unpleasant <i>reality</i> in order to reduce anxiety. Their culture, i.e. Mormonism,presumes certain behaviors which are in conflict with subjective experience. This causes anxiety which they suppress through denial.

Or do you think guys who are ambitious and cunning enough to climb to the top of a large organization like that are stupid?

I'm related to a GA and, yes, he believes 100% that Mormonism is "true". You have to remember that their basis for belief is not in facts - it is in spiritual experiences. This person has had some significant personal experiences that have led him to believe. In his mind, nothing else matters and he has dedicated his life to Mormonism as a result.

I'm sure there are many different kinds of GAs, but there are at least some that who are at least sincere in their belief - however misguided they may be...

but if a true believer with integrity ever made it to the top 15, he'd resign. Funny how that never happens. This is how we know they're con men ... unless, of course, you think there might really be a god who talks to the world through a bunch of old men.

I think they do know that there are "problems", but the denial and illusion of power is much stronger. They put everything on the shelf because they "have to believe", and of course, they want to keep on living like princes. Huge amounts of cognitive dissonance, that one day will tear them apart inside. But yes, they do believe they are "god's chosen", IMHO.

I think that most of them are well aware of the issues. Hopw they internalize those issues is a familiar trait to mormons everywhere.

But they also have to think of their familes and extended familes. If a General Authority were to defect, he has a very large circle of family who must either walk away with him or face the scorn and dismay of the entire church. Even cousin Eddy will be ridiculed, and his son Billy will be beat up in mormonland grade school.

To accept that it is false is very hard. We all know this, but now consider how much harder it would be if we had millions of adoring fans, and our wives and our childrens and grandchildrens social status hung in the balance.

And of course, there is that threat that if someone like a GA were to renounce his Priesthood it is certain that he will be cast into Outer Darkness.

Who do I think knows it is not true?
Oaks.
Bednar.
Nelson.
And GBH knew it wasn't true.

JOD3

The fact that Oaks, Bednar and Nelson seem really smart? And GBH, as well?

If that's the case, I'm surprised you don't include Richard G. Scott. Wasn't that guy a nuclear physicist?

Only the Morg talks in these terms...

If you mean, "Do GA's think that the history of the church is 'seedy'? Or "Do you think GA's believe JS actually dug up real, actual Golden Plates?" Or "Do you think GA's believe JS saw HF and JC with human eyes the way one 'sees' an object?"

These are the real questions.....

Just asking if they think "it" is "false" is a very poor place from which to have a debate...IMHO of course....

What is "true"? Do you mean "factual"? "Factual" does not have to mean "true".

In my opinion, centering any debate around "true" and "false" brings an unscientific (i.e. touchy feely) aspect to the debate and contaminates the argument. I can believe something is "true" with absolutely no facts to back it up. However, I can't say something is "factual" if it is made up...unprovable...unfalsifiable.

Personally, I think Hinckley believed in it 100%. Yeah, he made some weaselly comments to the press in order to gain what he thought would be good PR, but he also on more than one occassion stated that the church was either 100% true or it was a fraud.

I'm sure he contorted and distorted for decades to make the facts accomodate his belief system but in the end I still think he believed it all.

Hinckley's claims that it is 100% true or 100% fraud are a demonstration that he knew, through personal experience, that mcuh of it was BS.

Apparently the denial compromise that he worked out with himself is that it might be 51% "true", and that rounds up to 100% true, because, well, 100% false was simply unacceptable.

I have students who are quite good at convincing themselves that 51% should round up to an A.

Hinckley knew about the campaign against the ERA, which he led, and lied about. He knew and led the campaign to pretend ETB was running LDS Inc, when he suffered severe dementia.

Hinckley was up to his eyeballs in the Hofmann affair. He lied in hiding the forged documents, lied when their existence was leaked, lied during the criminal investigation, and made sure the case never went to trial, so he wouldn't have to testify about his dealings with Hofmann.

He knew everything that went down in the September Six excommunications, and kept the Grizzly Bear Packer in check.

He was involved in the two most recent times the preface to the BoM was watered down, and was prophet when the term Lamanite was dropped from the modern Mormon lexicon. No more referring to modern aboriginal Americans as Lamanites.


Believed the Mormon myth 100%? Not a snowball's chance.

excellent points!!

thanks to all for your thoughts..

I gave this some thought some time ago and came up with this theory ... I think they believe their particular religion embodies and teaches Christianity better than any other Christian Church that is how they justify everything else.

From there each of them has their own personal level of denial regarding their actual relationship with a Deity, but all of them must know that the actual historical claims and narratives are not factual.

Perhaps it all feeds their egos. After all, the calling to be a "prophet, seer, and revelator" is a big one not to mention the adulation they receive from the sheeple.

They have people naming their children after them. My sister named her newborn son Dallin!!!

accept that it's a God Myth based on the belief in visions, etc.
That is exactly what the testimony is about. Faith in visionary claims. It's Bible based in it's claims Jesus Christ as their Savior which is also believed by faith.

Do some realize that the BOM, for instance, is not about real people places and things? Possibly. But that doesn't matter where the spiritual witness is concerned as this is much, much, much more than that.

It's wise to remember, in my view, that this is a Restoration Church with a Plan of Salvation that is a concrete in the minds of the believers, just as other people believe in their deities, and life after death promises, etc.

The LDS Church, like religion in general is always about faith, not factual evidences. Spiritual claims do not require them.

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine."

--Russell M. Nelson


You do not get to that level without knowing the truth about the history that they do not teach their members.


We see depictions of Joseph Smith reading from literal gold plates, all of the time.

They know.

his belief is that the GA's do believe the church is true. He worked closely with the high-ups in the church, and he said that because the GA's were surrounded by yes-men, they have never been exposed to anything that would oppose there beliefs.

Every week the GA's travel to different stakes to ordain SP's etc. and they are seen as the spiritual leader. That is their entire life, church. They live it so much they just believe it.

forgive me if this was already mentioned.

I think the GA's started to sincerely believe once the majority was populated with utah-born brethren. Then they kinda stopped believing after the Book of Abraham was proven to be fraudulent. What time window does that leave, 10 years of believing GA's lol?