So I am openly reading Parenting Beyond Belief around my wife and I also took my kids to a UU church this Sunday. My wife watched some of GC. She decided to ask me about what I'm learning in Parenting Beyond Belief. I was currently reading the section on morality, how to determine what is right and wrong. Using empathy and the Golden Rule for the basis. I told her that the problem with Mormon morality is there is no objective way to know if the leaders of the church are right or wrong. If you disagree with what the leaders say then your bishop can and does take away temple recommends. In my personal opinion temple questions suggest that a bishop would be right to do so. I gave her gave her 5 different ways that she was blindly follow, and she seemed insistent that she wasn't blindly following. She told me that the church makes her a better and it does more good in the world then bad. I asked her how asserting that sexually active gay people were sinful, made her a better person or made a positive impact on the world. I spent half an hour to get her to admit that the church and by extension herself, does in fact publicly make this statement. I then asked her again how it is making her a better person and how it was improving the world. She didn't want to answer, and that I was twisting the truth. I realize that if she ever admits that the church is in fact harmful, it would undermine her thought process about the church.

I think she has retreated back to the idea that the church is true, so even the things that are bad are good because the church is true. This is really want most members think, even though they often say "If the church wasn't true I wouldn't change a thing" while I think a few of them genuinely mean it, most of them just don't critically think about that statement and truly believe because they think it's true in-spite of the objectively bad things they teach and do.

My wife did note the Uchtdorf stated that members that leave because they are "lazy, offended, or have a desire to sin" She asked me if I was glad about it. I said yes, but it is frustrating the exmormons have been saying it since the beginning of the church and mormons just believed they were lying. Now that a apostle has said it, it's actually true. Yet Uchtdorf still seems to be blaming the members who have left the church with his doubt your doubts statement.

My wife also told me that she interpreted Uchtdorf's doubt your doubts statement as meaning that you should actually be willing to study your doubt. I encouraged her to do so, I have printed out the letter to the CES director, but have put it in a place that is open, but not likely to be stumbled upon. I also told her that, that was not the way it was used by many on my facebook page and it was another example of church leaders telling member not to think for themselves. She denied this because it did not fit her interpretation. As long as she is serious about her interpretation (which I don't think she is) she would be willing to study.

My sister in law has also been updating the family by email about a girl she is trying to convert. She asked the women if she would listen to conference and ask herself if she felt peace by his words. Apparently the women feels she needs to remove herself from the current friends she has. I would like to respond to my SIL to offer this women therapy and encourage her to attend a less oppressive church, but I don't think my SIL would appreciate it. This same SIL posted a podcast on her facebook about strengthening marriages when one person loses their testimony. I explained to my wife why that would be condescending to exmormon, most of us believe we have found the truth, and if they find my testimony they are welcome to mail it to me.

I have now found out that my wife has told all her siblings without my knowledge. She told her parents with my knowledge, and in reality I don't care much about the siblings knowing. I'm pretty open about it now. I am a little afraid that I don't know how to have a conversation about religion with a Mormon without destroying the relationship, so there is a little fear there.

With that knowledge I think that the SIL is trying to work on me through facebook and these email updates. I don't feel like I can respond to them without destroying the relationship and part of me wants to keep them. The cruelness lie the church tells is that it cares about the family, when it is painfully obvious the church cares more about itself then the family.

My wife has shown her ability to be dishonest with herself and I don't see that changing anytime soon. My GC has been a negative overall, however we expressed our love for each other and why we love each other. I think my wife was questioning. She asked me what I thought about adultery as if I could some how justify doing it. It saddens me that she doesn't see that the church under the disguise of polygamy actually endorsed adultery. It's also sad that she might not understand the rational reason a man is faithful. I love her very much. I think our marriage is pretty safe, but having different beliefs has made it difficult for us. We typically just don't talk about it. I could tell she felt uncomfortable listening to conference and I reading my book and attending the UU church really made the conversation hard to avoid.

I hope you guys can wish me luck, and I do the same for you. Thanks for letting me vent.

I do wish you luck in your journey with your wife's beliefs. I think there is hope that she will come around. The 2003 version of me would never have believed the 2013 updated version.

Great vent!! Can you explain to me more of what the UU is and the Parenting Beyond Belief is? I am curious and interested.

The UU is a church that has the belief that everyone is on their own spiritual path, it teaches morality from several religious texts and biographies of historical figures. It's a very atheist friendly church. I was very scared to attend because I am afraid of being lied to again, but realize that I need to offer my kids some type of community separate from my wife's participation in the church. I realize they will get this from public school (I don't live anywhere close to Utah), but acknowledge the desire some people (my children might) have for spiritual fulfillment and think that the UU is the least dogmatic church available for that. If they don't want to attend UU when they grow up and just want to be a freethinker that doesn't need church. I would be happy, but realize that's not the case for all people.

The good news, I just put on some jeans and a t-shirt, I changed my kids into play clothes we attended for a hour. I just went to nursery to be with my kids. I'll probably attend the worship service when I go next, but didn't feel comfortable just dropping off my kids. I'm very gun shy about organized religion, even if it's the UU. I'm very nervous to meet new people, but introduced myself to a couple of people. One said they were an ex-JW, which was kind of nice. I can related to ex'ism. Also it was only an hour. They have a bunch of separate programs that are planned by lay-leaders, which you can choose to attend or not attend separate from church.

The things I didn't like was the ritual & chants during the lighting of the candle. Ritals & chants make me uncomfortable, makes me think too much of the LDS church. The lay-lead programs kind of remind me of the church also.

I'm very very gun shy about organized religion, so it might take me a while to trust anybody, or anything any church says or does. I know I kind of gave off that vibe, but I really don't care. They can think I'm a bit off if they'd like. If the church is truly opening to people with doubts, and actually focuses on helping members and the community at large regardless of religion the way the Mormon church pretends to then time will tell.

My next week I'm planning on going to the local children's museum. My wife and I have an every other Sunday compromise. I don't want attending the UU to become a default. We can do fun things on Sunday is the message I want to send.

Also look on Amazon for Parenting Beyond Belief. It's a great book for parenting as a freethinker. It goes over several topics that cause freethinkers to be different the religious parents. A lot of the content is by the author, but it actually has a lot of input from various freethinkers. They give various opinions about celebrating holidays (they have a good variety of opinions too, arguments for and against celebrating holidays). It gives various points of view and doesn't give you a yes or no answer. Some practical ways to deal with situations. I have enjoyed it.

The fact that you are able to discuss this stuff at all with her is leaps and bounds ahead of where I am with my hubby......

Good luck with your situation.....

Hearing some of the horror stories on this board, I'm grateful for my wife, I'm grateful she is willing to listen for at least a little while.

Best wishes David. How frustrating for you.

Just one word of advice though and I know this is unsolicited, but I assume most of us come here to vent, discuss, kick ideas around, etc. so here goes based on that assumption:

I highly recommend you find a way to discuss the church without attacking it. Putting your wife's back against the wall will not help her become comfortable enough to entertain the thought that the church isn't true.

She does what most of us do when shoved...she shoves back or retreats to a safe place.

She is showing signs of wanting to believe you it appears. Don't make it hard for her.

Just my thoughts as I read your post. Best wishes coming your way.

Thank you, I always appreciate people's willingness to be critical of what I say.

I agree that this is a danger I risk, I have seen the way she retreated into stating the church is true when I presented her with the possibility that the church was not objectively good.

I am really trying to let go of control, but am having difficulties. This is partially why I'm worried to have conversations about Mormonism with family members because I don't know how to reign it in. To let it go, to give her information dispassionately and let her come to her own conclusion. I'm trying hard to let go. Thanks for the input it is well noted, and I'm working on it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2013 01:54PM by David Jason.

Like where you wanted to know how condemning sexually active homosexuals (or anyone else, really) makes her a "better" person. She made the claim and it's reasonable to expect her to back it up.

Thank you for taking my words in the spirit intended.

How did you come to find out the truth? Will that work for her?

More than likely, she is going to have to do her own research and come to her own conclusions. Otherwise, it looks like she's just following your agenda to please you.

One of my favorite quotes: "Women smell an agenda like shit on a shoe." Haha.....thanks for reminding me of that:)

I would say you did an excellent job in a very tough position to be in.

That was an excellent analysis of your situation, which I am sure applies to quite a few others. I am impressed with the clear, concise way you have handled the situation, apparently leaving emotion out of the interactions, and holding your wife to the facts.

I hope enough of words struck a chord with her that after having a while to steep and simmer, some of it might stick. At the very least, I think your approach can foster respect. Good luck.

While I think my logic was sound. She tried to state that the Bible was the word of God and that the church tries to follow Christ. I pointed out Christ's lack of commentary on gay marriage & 10% tithing. She reverted to the old testament. I tried to point out the obvious POS God was in the old testament, and she seemed to laugh it off. Part of me felt like I was getting nowhere, do they just say things without needed to actually support anything they say.

She tells me what she believes, but doesn't seem to actually believe what she says.

I can't say I wasn't emotional about the situation, even though I did try. No tears from me, I was condescending at times, but recognized it a few times and rephrased the question. I have things I need to work on, but I think my logic was sound, my tone could be better. I didn't pull any punches and tried to really drive home the point. How would you know if the prophets today were lying?? & How do you know the church is good??

It was obvious that my intent what to discredit the church.

How sad that she fears you'll cheat on her just because you're no longer Mormon. :-( Does she have that little regard for herself or for you?

No, it is a fear response the church indoctrinates everyone with. They make it seem like if you leave you will immediately become the spawn of satan. She is just voicing that and asking for reassurance imho. They say that you will literally be subject to the "buffetings of satan".

For me, it was important to show that not only am i the same person but that my moral values exist independently of the church and are much more powerful because I'm living my life according to my values and not because of what some church guy tells me what I should be doing.

I personally don't see it that way. She genuinely believes that these rules are the guiding force behind her life. While I helped her see why rational thought is a better guide to use for live, she is very hesitant to rely on it. When theist suggest that the 10 commandments is what prevents them from killing people, a small part of them actually believes it. I see her reaction in a very similar way. She has a genuine fear of trusting in her own ability to determine right from wrong, I think the church encourages that belief and I recognize that I felt the same way when I first realized the church was a fraud. Mormonism by it's nature encourages you to "have that little regard for [yourself]" The church doesn't teach you that you have value separate from the church. When I discovered the church was a fraud I sincerely doubted my personal value. I expect my wife is dealing with a similar situation. All I can do is tell her and show my love for her in-spite of what the church teaches her and hope she comes around. I don't fault her for this pattern of thinking.

Sounds like your wife is a classic case of the LDS church being a personal mental/emotional construct. It is what she needs/wants it to be, regardless of reality.

I just spent two weeks in another country. They don't know about mormonism, they don't know a lot about religion. They have moral standards. They have purpose in life through the family unit. Their whole life revolves around family. The leaders of the country promote the family unit as a way to find happiness. The leaders also control them in every aspect of their life.

Mormonism exists in Utah and very little in any other venue. Mormonism is a speck of dirt in relation to the the people of the world. Mormonism lives in, and elevated in the the minds of mormons,for mormons and about mormons. The world does not know who they are. They don't know the mormon god nor do they need him.
Did god forget 1.3 billion people? No he did not forget them...because there is no god of this world. God was only created in the minds of people that have been brainwashed to think that god exists.

As long as one clings to their belief that the LDS Church is 'true,' they have the ability to put uncomfortable doctrines on a shelf.

They honestly believe that someday Heavenly Father will explain it all and then everything will make sense and all wrongs will be made right.