I just thought about something I have heard repeated often. It goes something like "if a leader tells you to do something wrong/incorrectly/uninspired, and you do it, you will be blessed regardless. The deed doesn't matter, your obedience does."

Wow. Some of the things you blindly accept as a TBM, later you look back and realize how absolutely nuts they truly are. Anyone know if this has doctrinal basis, or if it's just an excuse for leaders to do stupid things and still claim inspiration when convenient?

Like if Hitler orders you to gas millions of Jews, you should unquestionly obey orders, and you'll be blessed.


(Sorry for invoking Godwin's law so early in the thread)

Yeah, exactly like that. Or Bishops intrusively asking sexually explicit questions to young children in private?

I don't remember who told me this, but I remember hearing back in my youth that Hitler liked Mormons because they were obedient. Seriously, I'm not making this up.

Yes, Steve Benson wrote a lengthy post about German Mormons being accepted & integrated into Nazi ways of thinking as Hitler's influence increased.

I'm talking about YEARS ago, before I even knew RfM existed. Whoever told me was a Mormon, not an ex-Mormon.

Lenina Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, Steve Benson wrote a lengthy post about
> German Mormons being accepted & integrated into
> Nazi ways of thinking as Hitler's influence
> increased.


actually, mormons were normal in Nazi Germany. Some were big Nazis, others didn't want to associate with them. But they had to be politically correct or they'd be shut down/killed.

If you can get people to believe in absurdities then you can convince them to commit attrocities.

I think Moses said this in the bible.

Maybe not.

The bible says a lot of things...

This is one of the reasons I could no longer believe in the Mormon god/religion. If there was a perfect god out there, I believe he would WANT his children to question and think for themselves, even if it goes against his supposed "representatives" directives on Earth, and most importantly to follow your own conscience. Its one thing if you are being disobedient out of rebelliousness but God should admire his children who go against what they are told if it goes against their conscience.

For a God who wants his children to grow and progress what kind of development can they attain if they are mindless drones?

That was one of the main motivators behind my desertion as well. Truth must withstand scrutiny, or it's not truth. If Mormonism is true, why can't we investigate as members?

Well stated.

welcome to many methodist and episcopal churches! of course, you'll still meet a mob of irritating Church Bullies who'll do anything to annoy you on your journey...

peterlynch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I just thought about something I have heard
> repeated often. It goes something like "if a
> leader tells you to do something
> wrong/incorrectly/uninspired, and you do it, you
> will be blessed regardless. The deed doesn't
> matter, your obedience does."
>


President Marion G. Romney:

“I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President Heber J. Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home … Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’” (Conference Report, October 1960, p. 78.)

Thanks for the reference.

The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’” (Conference Report, October 1960, p. 78.)
The prophet would never order anything bad like Brother Brigham ordering the deaths of an innocent Arkansaw wagon train.

pretty sure Hoax said 'exactly' that.

Always Question Authority !

My SIL said this to me just today. If you obey the bishop and he's out of line, the sin will be on his head and God will bless you. You just have to obey and be humble. But if I turned the subject around, she'd also say that bishops are human and make mistakes. But you won't pay for their mistakes because you will be bless for your obedience. I wanted to ask her if that wasn't something taught to Hitler's minions because I remembered reading that somewhere. But she was already pretty wound up. I personally don't see why someone should spend their whole life traumatized by a bad church leader, just to prove their mindless obedience. Wasn't it Satan's plan to make people obey unquestioningly in all things while the Savior recommended living free agency? According to Mo doctrine, I mean.

Exactly the problem. there is no rationality behind this teaching, not to mention it is extremely dangerous. "Go kill that women, she adulter-ered". I better do as the bishop says, either way I'll be blessed... Lunacy I tell you. Sheer lunacy.

+1000

You may be blessed in the next life, but you'll suffer because of that obedience in this life.

Bishop: Sell all your things, donate the money to the church and move to Missouri, the end is here and the lord will provide for you!

TBM after following Bishops orders: Well, now we're broke, hungry, out of work, homless, and Jesus hasn't shown up yet. Oh well, only a few more decades of this and we'll die and get our blessing for being obedient to the Bishop. Wow, such a great church, such great blessings.....we're so blessed.

...Do as I'm doing, follow follow me...Do as I'm doing, follow follow me...If I do it high or low, if I do it fast or slow...Do as I'm doing follow follow me...

Sunbeams are 3yrs old, I can't remember, but the song stays with me...

One of the first things to go on the shelf was my first big adult calling--VT supervisor in a Utah student ward. The RS pres said I had to visit each sister at their home or apartment to give them their assignment. I argued that it was impossible because I was a second year nursing student (busy!) and, I had no car. She didn't care. After a couple of weeks of tears and frustration, I gave the calling back. So did the next three attempters. So many times pure obedience would have been disasterous.

I was taught that "doctrine" when I was growing up in the church. I put it in quotes because the very word doctrine is problematic in the Mormon church (possibly in all churches, but I can't speak to that).

I always thought it an odd thing to say, and even stranger to contemplate actually carrying on with such a proposition.

I had a bishop who had an affair with his secretary over an extended period of time. So during that time, I think most TBM's would reasonably conclude that he did not have "the spirit" with him. On the other hand they might argue that even then, when he gave counsel, he was guided from above. Either position seems untenable to me.

So during this period of time, should I have followed my bishop's counsel or not?

This is the kind of thing that leads TBM's into twisting their minds with all sorts of mental gymnastics

Gone are the white shirts, black pants and ugly ties - here's the new mormon uniform for those who obey without questioning:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Die_Uniformen_der_Allgemeinen_SS_32-45.jpg

That reasoning didn't fly at'Nuremburg.

Eventually, the inspired ignorance of Mormon mothers will result in what we are already seeing, a noticeable intelligence gap in congregations. Getting harder and harder to find "good help" for free among the members.

Oh my heck. Maybe obedience isn't all its cracked up to be (as the church hires more and more outside consultants)


Anagrammy

The whole mindless obedience thing is the most disturbing and just plain wrong part of Mormon belief, I sometimes think. Until I come across something else. But mostly, I stick with the mindless obedience teaching.

I am stunned that so many people trot it out as if it were actually a good thing.

All I can say to that is NEVER AGAIN!!! I listened to the preisthood 'blessings' that told me to be a 'good helmeet' to my abusive adulterous husband, and I stayed. I should have run a MILE a minute out of there with my children. It caused terrible pain to all.

I was blessed even when the instructions were wrong? B******T!!!!!! (as in cow extrement). Sorry for the strong language, but beleive me it is how I FEEL!!!

I feel you there. My mother has made her life miserable indeed because of her stubborn refusal to bend and just follows blindly.

It sounds more and more like "I was just following orders".

What keeps coming to my mind is a discussion regarding the preexistence and how none would be lost if we were compelled (satan's plan) and that we instead have free agency because we followed Christ's plan. I took that to mean we shouldn't be sheeple.
Or maybe this isn't taught anymore?

Ex mormon conference would be a swell idea - what with all the interesting viewpoints that would tangent from such an otherwordly experience of being part of the cult of Mormon.
At least we can relate to one another.

Isn't there already one of these each year?