I have a challenge for you, my lovely friends, I regrettably have to give a gospel doctrine lesson this Sunday. Now, the only reason I am still teaching is I don't want to rock the boat. My stepmother is still pretty sore about my "questioning" and while I live two blocks from her, I don't want to test those waters.

My lesson is on family roles, so my question to you my fellow exmormons, is how can I spread some truth in this lesson? How can I get my classmates to think a little about TSCC? I would really like to, subtly, slip some real truth in there. Can you guys think of anyway I can teach a real lesson without getting yelled at in the middle of class?

P.S. -I would love to just stand up and say " there are no real 'family roles' you can all do whatever the hell you want." But I don't have the guts.

Actually, try the opposite. Just say whatever the heck you want. Make stuff up. Make people stare at you funny. See how much of it you can get passed the know-it-alls. See how long it takes before someone pipes up "ya, I read that too" and then bares a testimony to how true it is.

I told my wife just last week that one of the very few things I miss about TSCC was teaching Gospel Doctrine. I really enjoyed it (until I realized I was teaching garbage).

That said, I'd offer up these quotes to the class and ask for reactions:

"Elders, never love your wives one hair's breadth further than they adorn the Gospel, never love them so but that you can leave them at a moment's warning without shedding a tear. Should you love a child any more than this? No. Here are Apostles and Prophets who are destined to be exalted with the Gods, to become rulers in the kingdom of our Father, to become equal with the Father and the Son, and will you let your affections be unduly placed on anything this side that kingdom and glory? If you do, you disgrace your calling and Priesthood. The very moment that persons in this Church suffer their affections to be immoderately placed upon an object this side the celestial kingdom, they disgrace their profession and calling. When you love your wives and children, are fond of your horses, your carriages, your fine houses, your goods and chattels, or anything of an earthly nature, before your affections become too strong, wait until you and your family are sealed up unto eternal lives, and you know they are yours from that time henceforth and for ever.

"I will now ask the sisters, do you believe that you are worthy of any greater love than you bestow upon your children? Do you believe that you should be beloved by your husbands and parents any further than you acknowledge and practise the principle of eternal lives? Every person who understands this principle would answer in a moment, "Let no being's affections be placed upon me any further than mine are on eternal principles-principles that are calculated to endure and exalt me, and bring me up to be an heir of God and a joint heir with Jesus Christ." This is what every person who has a correct understanding would say."

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 3, p. 354




"Tonight I am attending with a son, sons-in-law, and grandsons. Where are their mothers? Gathered in the kitchen of our home! What are they doing? Making large batches of homemade doughnuts! And when we return home, we will feast on those doughnuts. While we enjoy them, these mothers, sisters, and daughters will listen intently as each of us speaks of things he learned here tonight. It’s a nice family tradition, symbolic of the fact that everything we learn and do as priesthood bearers should bless our families."

- Apostle Russell M. Nelson, ""Our Sacred Duty to Honor Women," Ensign, May 1999

This is good. I found it to be shocking, but it's Brigham and Nelson, so what can they say? The JoD and the Apostles themselves can do the work for you. If you read this with carefully placed emphasis, I don't know how it could not inspire a few bewildered thoughts.

You could close with the BKP quote about truth not being very useful.

"Brothers and Sisters, At GC the other day, Uke Dork mentioned something about the leaders of our Church had made some mistakes. Well, I'm a gonna list a few of them right here and now."

(Talk about MMM, JS and his teenager wives, etc...)

How about taking their own prejudices to a logical conclusion? For instance, you could say that when a mother leaves the home to work, Satan sneaks in to babysit. A father who doesn't pay tithing is a robber, stealing from God. Hide your piggy banks. Why does a teenage brother close the door while showering? A lot of sin happens in bathrooms. Children who fuss in church meetings are the Devil's puppets. Teenage girls with short skirts are whores with Lucifer for a pimp. Not reading your scriptures is the same as looking at pornography--it means you hate Jesus. Etc.

I would try and get some thought going on non-traditional mariages/ families.....gay marriage, but without calling it that.

Maybe start with defining what a family is for......nurturing, loving, teaching, mentoring, providing, supporting, comforting, etc.

Get them to agree on that.....then go into somethjing like it shouldn't matter what the family "looks" like to anyone and that the important things are what they already agreed to.

Then, if a non-traditional family can provide these things, how can a loving god condemn them for doing so? Maybe try and blow holes in some of the stereotypical arguments against gay marriage too......"its not natural....then why does it happen naturally in the animal world?....etc.

Good luck!

If you want to teach what the family roles are in TSCC, have the class turn to D&C 132. The lesson manual always does a little cherry picking in this section. If you did a little cherry picking yourself you could easily bring the class to the conclusion that what the husband says, goes and if the wife does no obey she gets a first class ticket to hell.

I would love to see someone give that lesson.

I taught a gospel doctrine class in So Utah in 1985. the ward had a large number of snow birds. My average attendance was 125 in the class. I do not lie. I am a good teacher. I started my lesson where the manual left off.
We had lively discussions on "gospel matters".
The bishop thought that my teaching load was too heavy so they started an additional class.
My class attendance dropped for two weeks then went backup.
My point is this You probably will be prohibited from expanding on the lesson material these days. However DO IT ANYWAY. The worst they could do would be stop the class, remove you and go on. (Hope springs eternal)

Go to the Bishop tell him you won't be teaching anymore and tell him that if he wags his tongue about the conversation you will cut it off.

You don't have to acquiesce, they do. They are the ones who should be bending over backwards to make your situation tolerable.

Even if you quote the awful things that Brigham Young said, you run the risk of some crazy TBMs agreeing with it.

That's brilliant, I never imagined there would be spies within the church, asking on forums what to dupe the unaware suspects.

It is along the lines of me having a former ambition to surreptitiously lace the church social event punch bowl with some strong alcohol.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2013 09:14PM by sebcole.

I still teach and bring in lots of topics that I want to discuss - gay marriage, shaming, judging people who drink coffee when you've just downed your 2nd plate of meat, the need for women to be educated and the benefit of having a career, etc. They haven't kicked me out yet, and I think people like it.

I think as enough people start subverting the messages they're intended to share, we may soon see a paid clergy in the Morg.

I was just discussing this with DH.

If you're the father of 3 children ages 13 to 5 you have some huge responsibility on your shoulders.

If you own your own company, own a home, are in the stake high council, have a wife and 3 children, What is your #1 responsibility? 2,3, 4?

I would say church comes very very last. Especially if your family is falling apart. Your wife is considering leaving, your kids are failing, your business is suffering.

This is not an uncommon situation in mormondom. When are people going to wake up and get a grip?

I'd just throw out the topic to the class as a question. What are Family Roles? What does that mean? Then try and get a rip roaring argument going and stand back. lol Well, that probably won't go over well with mother in law.

How about saying, "Today's topic for class is Family Roles" and then give a lesson/lecture that has nothing whatsoever to do with family roles. See what happens and see if anyone even cares. If anyone asks you about it after the class you tell them the lesson was designed to have the class feel the spirit of the topic rather than the content. That ought to send them away scratching their heads.

I like this one, mainly because it shifts the burden of "rocking the boat" to them. The emperor's naked, why shouldn't you be?

You could start by saying this: A lot of people, especially older people in the church, have some misunderstandings about family roles. These are good, well intentioned people, and these ideas are just coming from misunderstandings of scripture and statements of past prophets. Let's read some of these scriptures and statements and then talk about them.

D&C 132

Brigham Young quotes from above

Here's another fun one from a polygamy speech:

The female portion of the human family have blessings promised to them if they are faithful. I do not know what the Lord could have put upon women worse than he did upon Mother Eve, where he told her: "Thy desire shall be to thy husband." Continually wanting the husband. "If you go to work, my eyes follow you; if you go away in the carriage, my eyes follow you, and I like you and I love you; I delight in you, and I desire you should have nobody else." I do not know that the Lord could have put upon women anything worse than this, I do not blame them for having these feelings. I would be glad if it were otherwise. Says a woman of faith and knowledge, "I will make the best of it; it is a law that man shall rule over me; his word is my law, and I must obey him; he must rule over me; this is upon me and I will submit to it," and by so doing she has promises that others do not have.
Brigham Young, JOD 16:22, Aug 31, 1873

Read from Genesis or Moses about how the women is supposed to be subordinate to the man.

Ask how these statements could possibly be misunderstood. Talk about what real family roles might be like.

Then you need to find quotes from modern guys about how marriage is an equal partnership. DIG for them, I'm pretty sure Hinckley has said a few.

Also, I LOVE that Nelson quote...

Good luck!

After telling the heinous quotes, you could also read quotes about how a modern prophet is more important than a dead one, then read the modern quotes about equal partnerships. Ask why we should follow the more recent counsel. That may get some wheels turning!


"The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
...The living prophet is more vital to us than the Standard Works.
...The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
...The prophet will never lead the Church astray.
...The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture.
Sometimes there are those who argue about words. They might say the prophet gave us counsel but that we are not obliged to follow it unless he says it is a commandment. But the Lord says of the Prophet, 'Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you.'"
-Ezra T. Benson, First Pres. Message, June 1981


"They who garnish the sepulchres of the dead prophets begin now by stoning the living ones."
Spencer Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 462

This doctrine that living prophets rank higher than dead ones does solve the problem of the heinous teachings of past prophets. Unfortunately, it creates a bigger problem: it destroys the very idea of prophecy. If a prophet's words don't extend longer than his own life, and his own ability to conform his words to present expediency, he's not a prophet. He's just any other guy. If everything depends on a "living" prophet, there's no prophecy. Nothing's prophetic, it's just a guy talking about what's going on now. There's not a thing miraculous or inspired about that.

Haha, I know... But it actually sounds like something you might hear in Sunday School!

This quotation by SWK: "They who garnish the sepulchres of the dead prophets begin now by stoning the living ones," illustrates the Mormon BS machine at work. This ornate, too-clever-by-half language: "they who" (who talks that way?), "garnishing the sepulchres of the dead!," "stoning the living ones!" baffles the duped with it's faux-poetics, while distracting attention from it's message: it's perfectly natural that a great Mormon prophet, like BY, with half of Utah named by or for him, in his teachings didn't even measure up to the men of his own time, much less withstand the test of time. No one thinks, whoa, that Abraham Lincoln, what a reprehensible bigot, or blood atonement?! People actually tolerated that?

To OP: Real boats rock.

That is all.

There is a lot a variation, both in time and place, in the composition of a "traditional" family.

Sometimes multiple generations live under one roof, sometimes children are raised by their grandparents, sometimes children are partly responsible for generating family income, etc.

The image of a 1950s family that the church is trying to project, is very hard to pinpoint, if it ever existed to begin with.

I am not an ex mormon. I am a Seventh Day Adventist but 2 teens came to our house and I started researching about mormonism. To find out more about what SDA's beleive go here.http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/

Why? That would be trading one crazy for another.

Haha it trading one belief in magic for another.

in order to present a travesty. "Family roles" is a very broad area and psychology is just starting to reveal the effects of its dynamics. (Psychologist and UCLA professor Daniel Siegel's "Parenting from the Inside Out" is a great place to start--but I realize you don't have a lot of prep time.

I assume of course that your class will be adults, not whole families, so the aim would be to assist them to be better parents. A very interesting online course I took last year is by Miriam Martineau, "Parenting as a Spiritual Practice." It's important for parents to 'meet' their children at the children's stage of psychological and neurological development. She has a vimeo talk about this, with practical suggestions, at http://vimeo.com/64973592

“If, on the Sabbath day, when we are assembled here to worship the Lord, one of the Elders should be prompted to give us a lecture on any branch of education with which he is acquainted, is it outside the pale of our religion?
“Or if an Elder shall give us a lecture upon astronomy, chemistry, or geology, our religion embraces it all. It matters not what the subject be, if it tends to improve the mind, exalt the feelings, and enlarge the capacity. The truth that is in all the arts and sciences forms a part of our religion. Faith is no more a part of it than any other true principle of philosophy.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, pp. 334-335.

As far as family roles, you could teach a history lesson on family roles, or other scientific studies on that topic.
There was an article on CNN a few years ago that mentioned a study indicating marriages in which the husband did some of the 'womanly tasks' (cooking, dishes, cleaning, etc...) had less sex than marriages that followed 'traditional' roles.

Thank you everyone for your help! I really liked all of your responses but some o didn't get to until after my lesson was over, for that I'm sorry because you guys are brilliant! I really liked all of the JOD and SWK quotations, and as such put them in my lesson.

So there I sat expecting some confused stares, and all I get are nodding heads, and smiles. No one dared question the prophets teaching. I Guess I don't know what I was expecting.

Then someone decided to say this little number, " you guys heard about those WOMEN who tried to get into the priesthood session? How ridiculous, they should just have stayed home."

It was then I switched my game plan from, "try to show them truth" to "let's see how quick I can get them to kick me out."

My rebuttal of women should at least have the option of the priesthood, whether they want it or not, was not taken very well. The hoard responded with men can't have babies so its fair. I responded with, if a women is barren she is effectively nothing in the church, but of a man has his penis cut off/ can't have children he still has the preistood . Then it was the " desperate but equal" talk.

I just gave up. But I wanted to thank you all for your help in this lesson, I think it was the best I ever gave. Thanks again everyone :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2013 11:57AM by Bartok.

Have you been released yet? Sounds like the claws came out. Some of the best and most memorable GD classes are those with controversy! Lol. Good luck from here on out!

1. Eve was given to Adam. He literally owned her.

2. Eve ate the fruit then Adam ate it so He could keep Eve.

3. God punished Adam and Eve by kicking them out of the garden.

4. God gave Eve extra punishment. Painful child birth and cramps.

5. Men are not punished for Adams Transgression.

6. Women are still being punished for Eves transgression.

7. Men have the priesthood(power). Women have motherhood via painful childbirth( punishing reminder of Eves Transgression).

Husband role is to own his wife and through the priesthood, remind her she is his servant.

Wife's role is to have babies, clean the house, and quietly accept punishment for Eves transgression.