I am a frequent contributor on this board, but will need to post this without any identification.

My wife is a nurse and recently went to work for Planned Parenthood. In addition to taking histories, scheduling procedures, providing advice on birth control, she also assists with "procedures". Some of these are birth control implants, but two days per week, she assists with abortions. Many of these are those the church would approve of (at least not ex you), such as the 10 year old girl who got pregnant from being raped by her brother, or about once per week, they get one that is fetal demise (fetus is not growing, will never come to term, but has a heart beat). She has not issues with those, but is a bit concerned with women who consider abortion a form of birth control.

I am just wondering that if at some point, it gets back to church leadership, will she get exed. I think that would finally be the thing that pushes her over the edge of leaving the cult.

Thoughts?

I doubt a bishop would excommunicate over that. He might, but I think it more likely he would refuse a TR, if he did anything.

Do you want him to threaten excommunication?

I hate to say it, since it would cause my wife emotional turmoil, but I almost wish they found out. Then I could push the issue. I would bet they would demand she change jobs for them to drop it. She does not currently have a TR, but would feel fine with answering the questions with appropriate answers.

I'm under the impression that "women who use abortion as birth control" is minimal in proportion to the total number of "legitimate" reasons for abortion.

Abortion is not easy, nor it is painless, or cheap. Why on earth would someone rely on it for BC when Planned Parenthood ALSO provides low-cost birth control? That doesn't even make any logical sense.

I'm thinking the meme that women use AB as BC is just some anti-abortion propaganda. Sometimes, BC fails. There's about a hundred different, very valid reasons for AB. It really sounds like, to me, that YOU are the one with this concern, not your wife.

Why don't you ask the wife: how many repeat customers has she seen in there since taking this job? How many patients has she seen total? Do the math.

ETA: I have no idea what any random bishop would do if she "got caught." AFAIK, no two bishops handle anything the same way. Depends on who you get in the Bishop Lotto.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2013 12:06PM by dogzilla.

I did know one lady who had multiple abortions. She even tried to get preg once then changed her mind. I have never known anyone else like her. She was odd in a lot of ways. She was selfish and a terrible mother to the one child she carried to term.

I have know a rape victim and other one time abortions. I agree it is a rare, rare person who has multiple done.

"how many repeat customers has she seen in there since taking this job? How many patients has she seen total? Do the math."

There are stats out there on this, and there are many women that treat it as BC...those that have 1 often have several more. I agree though...it doesn't make much sense when there are other easier options.

I really don't think the hard data bears that out. It's too traumatic.

Let's all go do some Googling and see if we can't substantiate these claims, wanna? I find it difficult to believe that it's as common as some of you say. I'm willing to stand corrected if we can find some corroborative, verifiable data.

Note: the plural of "anecdote" is not data. ;>)

http://healthland.time.com/2012/10/05/study-free-birth-control-significantly-cuts-abortion-rates/

UK stats: 15-40% of terminations are repeats
http://www.nhs.uk/news/2012/05may/Pages/repeat-abortion-termination-statistics.aspx#

Both cite that 30-40% of those who come in for first time legal abortions had used a firm of contraception at the time they became pregnant for the first time

Essentially all women I have known who had abortions did not qualify under LDS "exceptions". I would hope the OP's DW would quit her job, not because of TSCC but because she has legitimate qualms re her job.

Part of my disgust with TSCC is the position on abortion - as I do not believe in the "exceptions". If it is not life involved, there should be no restriction. If life is involved, it should not exist except on the issue of one life as to the other, and that is extremely rare. TSCC is, above all, the teachings of man, not the teachings of God.

Your position is in violation of laws against involuntary servitude. I own my body and its resources, and I get to say, within scientific limits, what and who, if anything/anyone grows there.

Besides, how do you actually define "life?" Even the Old Testament declines to define a fetus, at any stage, as the equivalent of an independently breathing human being; in fact, it doesn't define a fetus as any kind of "life" entitled to legal protection until after "quickening," several months into a pregnancy. And, just out of curiosity, do you oppose the death penalty too, and, if not, why not?

What about fertilized eggs that fail to implant? Are they also "life"? If not, why not? If so, birth control pills are a murder weapon in many, many un-prosecuted cases of homicide every day and night.

What about uncombined human eggs and sperm? Isn't every act of male masturbation mass homicide? What about human stem cells? For that matter, are human stem cells more alive than any other cells?

What about other mammals'cells (let alone whole mammals)? Or, what about all animals, including birds, reptiles and fish? Are you a vegetarian? Oh wait, plants are made up of cells too. In fact, the tastiest parts of lots of plants are really "unborn" life aren't they? Bacteria and viruses anyone? Is it really OK to eat yogurt?

Speaking of the "doctrines of men,"your reasoning seems to conveniently ignore the fact that all life is a matter of life against life, and that human reproduction always involves grave implications to other lives, but most especially to the life of host/mother of that life. Are you aware that up until the end of the 19th century 20% of women eventually died of causes related to child birth?

However shocking though, that's completely beside the point. The bottom line is that I'm a free human being and, as such, the sovereign of my own body. Therefore, I deeply resent your (or anyone else's) presumption of any right to determine what/who, if anything/one, has any right to occupy me, for any length of time, for any reason whatsoever, against my will. Please mind your own reproductive organs and let me mind mine.

Totally agree with you. This is a choice no one should ever make for anyone else. Carrying a baby for 9 months and raising that baby is a HUGE, life changing commitment- completely indentured servitude.

I get that the pro-life people contend that they are protecting the baby's life- but what constitutes a baby? That is the problem with this point of view. A few cells bundled together and multiplying- with no way of surviving on their own?? A heartbeat- but no brain function? In many ways and for many weeks- those cells are nothing but a parasite to the host. If you feel this is a baby- then make your own choices about your "baby" and your body. But let me make my own choices about my parasite and my body. I had 1 abortion. It was an accident with my boyfriend. I don't regret the decision at all. I was 6 weeks pregnant and it was the wrong time in my life and his. I was not capable of having a child at that point. I was on birth control, it was an accident. But it doesn't matter the reason- it was my body and my choice. Not that it matters, but we later married and have 2 kids. Lots of different people choice abortions for lots of different reasons. But it is our legal right to make these choices for our own bodies.

BTW- I worked for PP for awhile and what frustrates me the most about the attacks on PP is that no one else in the entire world works harder at limiting abortions. Their goal is to educate everyone about their reproductive health and provide affordable and easy ways for people to get birth control. The also work hard at educating woman about fetus development and in helping to facilitate as early term abortions as they can. PP is actually the best resource the pro-life world has for limiting abortions. Get rid of that resource- what do you have? Just like abstinence only education- people will still have sex. But now they are less educated and less capable of making earlier decisions.

Where do you draw the line? A blighted fetus that will not survive to be born? Let the mom have a spontaneous abortion?

I would love the pro-life organizations put some money towards research to reduce the number of early fetal death. If every baby deserves to be born, why not look into the reasons for miscarriages? I believe there are more miscarriages every year than there are abortions. Where's the outrage?

Seeing how the church considers abortion to be akin to murder, then yeah, they'd probably have your wife go through bishop's court if they found out. Guilty till proven innocent in such a case I imagine. She would have to clarify she is doing "church-approved" abortions.

I don't mean to hi-jack your post. But I applied for a job for IT Support at Planned Parenthood. I'm still opposed to abortion. After discussing it with some trusted friends, I realized that I'd be experiencing some major Cog-Dis if I had started to work there.

My question would be, how does your wife feel about working there? If she doesn't have a moral dilemma with it, then I would just say ignore what TSCC thinks about it and "don't ask, don't tell" as long as she's comfortable with it. If she does have a moral dilemma, then it might be time for her to be looking for another employer.

I don't mean to hi-jack this post either, but in response to dogzilla, yes, there are definitely women who use abortion as birth control--though I agree with you it has never made sense to me either, for the same reasons you give.

I knew a girl in high school who had three abortions before graduation (always impregnated by the same guy). Her older sisters took her to PP for each abortion. I'm certain PP counselors must have recommended she go on birth control, but for whatever reason, she didn't, or if she did she wasn't using it properly.

I also have spoken with a counselor on my campus (I teach at a community college) who used to work at PP, and she told me it was incredibly frustrating how many of their patients returned multiple times for abortions instead of using reliable contraception (if any).

I'm sure it's true that the "abortion as birth control" patients are in the minority, but from what I understand it's not that rare either. (For the record, I am pro-choice.)

I know two women who had multiple abortions because they refused and/or were too lazy to use birth control. Yes, they're both screwy in the head.

Better to get an abortion than have your parents find your BC pills.

So old school. There are many forms of BC now that do not mean having to carry around pills. Parents would never know about Depo shots. Or the Nuva Ring. Or even Implanon. All of these choices would be presented to anyone seeking BC.

On another note, I was questioning the frequency of multiple abortions because people are judging the multiple abortion people the harshest, IMO. I could only find decent data at the CDC -- all other sources were just assertions in blogs and people talking out their butts with no data provided. The numbers are higher than I would have expected, but still fairly low. On Table #19 (link below), the frequency of multiple abortions by state is laid out. For the most part, the percentage of women having had three or more abortions is in the single digits. Only a little over half have had only one. I was shocked by that number, but when you look at the proportion of women overall who have even had an abortion, nevermind multiples, the proportion of people having had multiples is still extremely low.

Cite: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6015a1.htm?s_cid=ss6015a1_w#Tab19

When I was a nursing student I worked in the OR for a while and helped with abortions. It has been over 10 years now but I still feel weird about it. My advice to you is let your wife believe what she wants. She believes in Mormonism like probably most did here on this board. Oh I felt so special getting my new name till I found out that everyone who went on that same date got the same name.
Don't tell on your wife to the bishop. Maybe you can see it this way your wife must be not the strictest TBM else she probably couldn't assist with abortions. She has a job that brings in money.

Also I think being excommunicated would shame her and hurt her. Where as if she resigns because she wanted to she could probably be proud of herself for leaving a scam.

The church is fairly liberal when it comes to abortion allowing for it in cases of rape, incest, or health of the mother. With that stance, there is no way they can argue that they believe abortion is murder. The problem would be getting them to think logically. In my worthless opinion, I would guess that performing abortions would still be cause for church discipline. It's all about appearances.

...either at the time or ever, then I suppose it is a form of birth control. Would you rather that women be forced of necessity to give birth to babies they dont want? Accidents certainly do happen, and people, not just women, are irresponsible. The sperm donors have some responsibility too here, and I think if it were men who had to bear the brunt of carrying a baby, with all the attendant baggage, abortion would not be an issue. Good gods, it's 2013, not 1913.

Yes, I had an abortion before I was married, but I do not regret it, even though it turned out not to be a viable embryo. Guys, it's just not up to you. Hands off, if you please.

I'm sure those who dislike the thought are just leaping at the chance to raise these unwanted children, right? Right?
Oh that's right, they're not. No, raising an unwanted child is just what she _deserves_ or some other misogynistic nonsense.
Let me just pull out this meme I've been seeing on facebook:
If men had to carry the fetus, abortion centers would be as commonplace as coffee shops.

I think that meme sound hyperbolic.

Plenty of Mormons work at, or own, casinos, Coco Cola bottling plants, department stores that sell short shorts, swimming pools that allow ladies to wear bikinis. Restaurants that sell coffee and tea. Grocery stores that sell beer. Drug stores that sell condoms.

Or even stores that sell earrings designed to have more than one pair attached at once.

I don't think your wife needs to worry about the bishop getting worked up.

If he does, tell her to yawn and say "hey, it's a job."

RG

Can I film porn and get a recommend? I think it would cause an issue.

My sister has had 3 abortions.

First, with a boyfriend who racially and culturally could not have married her as he would have been going against his family wishes.

Second, when she was pregnant prior to marrying her hubby. She didn't want kids and he did. She had an abortion because she didn't think she could handle it emotionally.

They then had a son later on.

Ten years later, she got pregnant by her hubby with twins and didn't want them. She was 40+ and sick from all the prescription drugs she'd been popping for 20+ years. She then had her 3rd abortion.

After her 2nd abortion, knowing she didn't want kids, I asked her what kind of BC she was using. She told me "whip it out" because she didn't like the side effects of being on the pill (you figure it out.) Apparently "whip it out" doesn't have the effectiveness she believed it does.

BTW, she has a bachelor's degree and her husband is a physician. Not exactly an intellectually challenged couple.

I think it's pretty vile.

This is the type of person I think the anti-abortion types would use as a case study.

I remember several GA talks that ripped on Planned Parenthood.

I feel like I'm just so sensitive when it comes to this issue and I've never understood how medical professionals can perform these let alone the individual going through it. We adopted our daughter. Her birthmom was fairly young at sixteen and her grandmother encouraged her to have an abortion as well as a few other family members in her life. It definately wasn't easy for her to place her for adoption but my little girl is just the most beautiful sweet girl, witty and smart. We've worked hard at making an open adoption work. I just asolutely cringe that many people in her same circumstance would and have chosen abortion. Where my daugher was born is was very uncommon to place a child for adoption- most chose to parent or had abortions. I get that adoption isn't all roses (and I'm not even talking about placement within the church) but shurly a viable option for some if they have no desire to parent. It saddens me that more people don't look at adoption as an option.

I hope your wife can work at a place that helps her feel enriched and happy. I have no ill-will towards planned parenthood because they have their place and there are "procedures" like rape and incest but at the end of the day she needs to be able to sleep at peace at night.

If she doesn't want to then she should have an abortion. Just because some childless couples want babies to adopt is an incredibly selfish argument. How dare you suggest that women should go through the discomfort, risk and stress of gestation and delivery just to place infants up for adoption?

Not everyone is comfortable with the notion of giving their own flesh and blood away.

I think your story is beautiful, I am impressed that that young woman chose to follow through and allow her child to have a chance at life.

That said, I think a lot of the controversy on this rises from legality battles. Every story is different, and each person needs to make their own choice. Persuasion about this one way or another is fine. Laws about it (forcing someone to carry a baby against their will) can be just as much a tragedy, as losing a baby, much as it saddens me to say it. I wish people would realize that persuasion is the only ethical approach to this, and avoid the needless aggression that comes of legislating "morality."

The first one was in my teens. This was the seventies, free love, sexual revolution and all. I learned I was sucked into what movies TV and music were saying and learned the realities and ramifications of poor desisions. I matured a lot in a fairly short period of time.

Second time, mid twenties, barrier method failure. The condom fell off and I didn't follow through with "morning after" because I was in what I thought was an infertile part of my cycle.

Third time, after I had a family, late in my 40s. I really thought I was clear by that point. I tried to keep the pregnancy but my age and hormones all out of whack anyway...I couldn't work and in CA you NEED two incomes to keep a family going. And I had a family that I was responsible for.