So here is this FAIR essay where the author sets up a series of straw man arguments and knocks them down with the usual evasive responses.

http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/LDSCult.pdf

Someone named Luna Flesher, who's credentials are probably no better or worse than the FAIR author, has written a rebuttal. Flesher is former LDS and references her experience as a Mormon and the work of cult experts.

http://www.rationalrevelation.com/library/cultrebuttal.html

I thought it was interesting.

Does anyone know more about this website? It seems like a good one to pass on, but I thought I'd crowd source. Seems smart to me unless I'm missing something. (Looking for some peer review here.)

"According to Mormon belief, if one sins, one loses the Holy Spirit because they're not worthy. So how can it be the Holy Spirit causing the guilt? You've just sinned, so the Spirit has fled. It must be something else causing the guilt. It's not Satan, because he wants you to sin. So that leaves your beliefs as the source of the guilt. Your beliefs come from the Church."

Well said.

I agree with that thought.

I can only assume (correctly) the article is as scholarly as this one on the problems with Chariots and Horses in the Book of Mormon.

FAIR or FARCE apologetics.



"Perhaps deer or tapirs pulled wheelless chariots. We know, for instance, that the American Indian travois (a kind of sled) was pulled, not only by horses, but also by dogs. Maybe King Lamoni used a deer or tapir-drawn travois to cart his supplies while traveling. The mass Nephite movement to Zarahemla certainly suggests that chariots were used to carry supplies rather than soldiers.

It's also possible that Nephite "horses"--at least when associated with chariots--were among the provisions that King Lamoni needed during his travels (we know that horses were part of the provisions which the Nephites reserved for themselves when fighting the Gadianton Robbers [3 Nephi 4:4]). Perhaps "preparing" the horses and chariots would be like "preparing the chicken and backpack." To modern ears this doesn't suggest that the chicken will carry the backpack but rather than a chicken meal will be prepared to go in the backpack. If Book of Mormon horses were eaten, they may have been one of the provisions loaded on a "chariot" and carried or dragged by men."

It might be good to run that by the normal Mormons who have read the book and see what they think. But I think that fewer and fewer Mormons are actually reading the thing.

Wheel less chariots. <snicker.>

Domesticated tapirs. <giggle.>

"Preparing horses and chariots" might mean putting chickens in backpacks. <Loud laughter.>

"Deluded? Why would you think we were deluded?"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2013 09:45AM by crom.

How 'bout an entry for next year's Days of '47 Parade: a wheel-less chariot drawn by a tapir and a deer!

The knights in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" had horseless horses.

Is this real?

This is my problem with FAIR...it's full of speculation. "Yeah, this doesn't make sense. So, PERHAPS blah, blah, blah..."..."or, MAYBE blah, blah, blah...". How do they think all this speculation is helpful? They're struggling just to create a one in a billion chance that the BoM COULD be true, or the BoA MIGHT be true, or that Brigham didn't really teach this or that.

Besides that, FAIR is cluttered with links to multiple arguments on the same topic...many of which contradict one another. Most TBM's that are simply looking for a reassurance will click through to the first argument and be satisfied. However, if you read all of the contradicting arguments, you're left with more doubts than when you started your search. The best thing for the church would be to shut the sites down.

I'm looking forward to the official church responses that are supposedly coming. I don't think they have anything useful to say, so I have no idea what their essays are going to look like. Maybe something like, "Joe really did see God and Jesus. Jesus told us through Joe's old seer stone. We realize that he told contradicting tales and that nobody else claimed to know about this vision. It was made known to me through the stone that this is because Satan was hard at work. Joe told everyone he ever came in contact with, but Satan erased their memories. Satan was also hard at work trying to cloud Joe's mind, which explains why Joe forgot that he had seen two personages in his 1832 written account, and why he forgot that he had any vision of diety in the 1835 history of the church. We solemnly declare to all doubters, believe it or thou shalt be destroyed!...pay your back-tithing too!...and tithing has been increased to 15%!...PAY US!...by "us" we mean "Jesus"!...or DIE! Love, Tommy and the gang."

zeezrom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can only assume (correctly) the article is as
> scholarly as this one on the problems with
> Chariots and Horses in the Book of Mormon.
>
> FAIR or FARCE apologetics.
>
>
>
> "Perhaps deer or tapirs pulled wheelless chariots.
> We know, for instance, that the American Indian
> travois (a kind of sled) was pulled, not only by
> horses, but also by dogs. Maybe King Lamoni used a
> deer or tapir-drawn travois to cart his supplies
> while traveling. The mass Nephite movement to
> Zarahemla certainly suggests that chariots were
> used to carry supplies rather than soldiers.
>
> It's also possible that Nephite "horses"--at
> least when associated with chariots--were among
> the provisions that King Lamoni needed during his
> travels (we know that horses were part of the
> provisions which the Nephites reserved for
> themselves when fighting the Gadianton Robbers [3
> Nephi 4:4]). Perhaps "preparing" the horses and
> chariots would be like "preparing the chicken and
> backpack." To modern ears this doesn't suggest
> that the chicken will carry the backpack but
> rather than a chicken meal will be prepared to go
> in the backpack. If Book of Mormon horses were
> eaten, they may have been one of the provisions
> loaded on a "chariot" and carried or dragged by
> men."

That's just about right. Mormon logic 101!

I appreciate how the rebuttal is so simply written without any attack on moism doctrine, etc. TSCC is a cult. Simple.

It defuses the, "but it's so good for the kids" argument.

My argument for why Mormonism isn't a cult. Because it isn't and I don't think it is and my opinion is worth more because I said so and I'm Mormon so I'm better than you and I'm Mormon so my opinion is better. We aren't for profit we just pay 10% to the prophet. Just because they sound the same doesnt mean the prophet profits. I'm Mormon so I'm right.

Definitely.

Besides, the church is true and anything that supports the one true church must be true, and anyone who says the church is true must be speaking the truth, and anyone who doesn't accept the church is true is under the influence of satan and can't be trusted, and anyone under the satan's influence will lie about the trueness of the church and the prophet. But anyone who acceptsthe trueness of the one true church was better in the pre-mortal life and will get a better afterlife and so must be better in this life, too, and you should listen to your betters on this, and you can know this is true because we're so nice and we smile all of the time because we have the one true church and the prophet. And there it is- Mormon logic!

That's it. I'm sold. I'm going back to church.

I like her piece.

My grown son tried to argue that Mormonism, though having cult like aspects, didn't have enough control over people's lives to rise to full cult level.

My counter argument was, the church has enormous control over missionaries, college students at its Universities, and its employees. For this group, and their families, the LDS church easily rises to cult level control. They don't have the freedom to simply walk away.

If parents dutifully follow the counsel given to them by their church leaders and raise their children in a church centered home that could rise to cult level control. (Think of the hours of church instruction seminary, YM/YW kids are forced to attend.)

If, like most Mormons, you live in a community that's overwhelmingly dominated by the church, most everyone with whom you interact will be part of the church. Most teachers, employers, and co workers will be Mormon. You have to keep your behavior and words in check constantly not to offend.

My son didn't like the idea that he was raised to be a cult member. But I did make him go to seminary, and when he stopped attending, he felt he had to keep it a secret. Secrecy because there's no having a rational conversation with Mormon parents about these things. When we let him skip YM's to study for a test, we were brought to task for this error by the Bishopric. Indoctrination of the youth is not optional.

The church is attempting to achieve cult like control, whether they always get the full effect in every home, probably doesn't happen. But they achieve it in enough homes and communities to scare the bejeezus out of me.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2013 09:35AM by crom.

Most of Christianity is a death cult waiting for Jesus to push the reset button on civilization. Mormonism adds more insider doctrine and stirs in a bit of crazy.

Sorry for bringing this topic back from the dead. :)

I am Luna Flesher who wrote that rebuttal to the FAIR paper. I found this thread because it seems FAIR has taken their piece down, and I'm searching high and low for a copy of it. Did anyone happen to save it? It seems they were quite thorough and removed it from the Wayback Machine, too.

FYI, I'm writing as Luna Lindsey now, and I've written an entire book on how Mormonism uses mind control and cult techniques. Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control. It's coming out next month (July 22nd).

That's why I'd like to find the FAIR piece, because I'm copying many of my old essays over to my new website for the book. Since it's a .PDF, I'm hoping at the very least someone happened to save a local copy of it.

Thanks!

crom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So here is this FAIR essay where the author sets
> up a series of straw man arguments and knocks them
> down with the usual evasive responses.
>
> http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/LDSCult.pdf
>
> Someone named Luna Flesher, who's credentials are
> probably no better or worse than the FAIR author,
> has written a rebuttal. Flesher is former LDS and
> references her experience as a Mormon and the work
> of cult experts.
>
> http://www.rationalrevelation.com/library/cultrebu
> ttal.html
>
> I thought it was interesting.
>
> Does anyone know more about this website? It
> seems like a good one to pass on, but I thought
> I'd crowd source. Seems smart to me unless I'm
> missing something. (Looking for some peer review
> here.)

Luna,

The PDF you're looking for is archived at the Wayback Machine, and you can find it here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20130403000846/http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/siever-is-mormonism-a-cult.pdf

I look forward to reading your book!

Thanks, Kismet! After some poking around I also found that a copy is still live on their site. I just forgot to come here and update everyone. Sorry about that!

Here it is: http://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/siever-is-mormonism-a-cult.pdf Looks like it got moved when they switched over to WordPress.