Any advice or links to information would be greatly appreciated.

I have a boyfriend of two years and I recently came out to my TBM family as gay about 3 or 4 months ago. We have arranged for my family to meet my boyfriend, but my TBM brother is reluctant about my nephew meeting him because he believes homosexuality is "learned."

I pointed out to him that studies are showing a strong link to predisposition over learning the behavior. I shared with my TBM brother my own experience, relating how I "knew" from a very young age (I'm talking 4 years old. I have a vivid early age memory). He said he disagrees without providing any evidence and discounting my story and contemporary studies. The "prophets" have said this is learned, therefore, it must be so.

What can I say to allow him to let me see my nephew? I'm pretty torn up about this actually. This really hurts.

I can imagine how painful it must be to have to deal with this. Bringing your boyfriend to meet the family shouldn't be any different than anyone bringing the one they love to meet their family. It's sad that this is still a problem.

That being said, I would ask your brother if he thinks that you learned it, if so, where? Didn't he grow up in the same home? Presumably, you went to a similar if not the same school? It's not like you went to "gay school" and he went to "straight school". So, if you "learned" it, why didn't he?

Also, I would ask him if he thinks that you'll be bringing along teaching materials and giving him homework assignments, along with the promise to check up on your nephew from time to time to ensure that his "gayness" is progressing as expected. I would do this as light heartedly as possible to hopefully get him to see the ridiculousness of it all.

Otherwise, you could point him to all of the various studies that show that a person's sexuality is predetermined from very, very young age (if not genetic, there are some studies that suggest that it may be related to a mother's hormones in-utero that helps determine sexuality).

Then, point to the church's own website, it's official church doctrine, mormonsandgays.org, where they specifically state that the "cause" is not known and that they should love and be open armed with their family members, or something to that effect (the rest of the message from that website is abhorrent, teaching that homosexuals will have their gender identity corrected when they die, and that being dead because of this may be better... but I digress)

Eventually, and sadly, as much as it hurts, your nephew is your brother's son and while it might do him some good to learn about diversity and equality, your brother controls his interactions at this point. You may have figure out how to come to terms with this. I hope he'll come around, but he may not.

Straight from mormonsandgays.org, an OFFICIAL church site:

"Where the Church stands:
The experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters."

This is what the "prophets" are currently saying, so it must be so, right? Not sure how your brother can argue against this.

That is definitely how I would have approached myself initially, if I were able to go back in time and argue with my TBM younger self.

I was going to suggest sending him the recently created church website, Mormonsandgays.org where it is explicitly stated this is not a choice or learned behavior. The website fits with more recent research and changing US social norms, but it is different from what was taught in the past. If you haven't had him read it, please do. And while it may take him a while to get comfortable with this (he was programmed to recoil) YOU are the best hope for him to learn the truth about homosexuality. Hopefully nephew is getting a different message through school.
Edit:
But be warned that the website still seems to suggest gays should live alone in celibacy, which is ridiculous. But the accommodation it already shows at least gives me hope - no longer are people being told to cast off and shun family.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2013 04:25PM by vh65.

Ask your brother when he learned to like girls. I'm still struggling to remember the time when I "learned" I like girls over boys. I just always seemed to like girls!....

google epigenetics and homosexuality

Also, feel free to use these responses I used in a similar conversation:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,765301,765301#msg-765301

Ugh I can remember when I thought the same. That was a major source of the cog dis that started to crack the foundations of my mormon beliefs. I was educated enough to know that homosexuality is inherent and not a "choice" or something "learned," but I was trying to find justifications for the church beliefs. One day I was talking about prop 8 with a friend (also mormon, but more liberal than I was back then), and I heard, actually heard, the bullshit that was coming out of my mouth (in support of the church position).

After that awful "I know what I'm saying is bullshit" moment, I looked into the issue and found that the gay rights movement had a WAY stronger argument, and I changed my position accordingly. It was the first issue that I openly disagreed with the church on. All at once, I learned both that the church could be wrong about something and that I can change my position on an issue after considering arguments from both sides.

The latter point seems really stupid to say out loud, but I'm sure most of us exmos can relate. The programming they put you through, from birth... it is just insane, isn't it?

Ask your brother when, exactly, he learned to be heterosexual. Who taught him? How did they teach it?

Males and females look at each other for different reasons. Men look at each other to see who is dominant and in authority. Women look at each other to rate each other in appearance and see who is socially superior. Suppose you are walking down the street on a warm day and see a strong, healthy, strapping young man stripped to the waist wearing a cowboy hat and jeans loading feed bags into a back of a truck. I would like him to explain just how a guy will be "taught" to begin noticing his physique and to become sexually aroused. Women appreciate feminine pulchritude on an aesthetic level and might feel a range of emotions from joy to envy to rage but usually sexual desire isn't one of them -- unless they just so happen to like other women.

I tried to learn how to be a lesbian.

Intellectually, having sex with another woman is something I always wanted to experience... simply for the experience. Having experiences is important in my life and I've zero negative feelings about homosexuality, so I figured that at some point I'd have 'gay sex'.

A few years ago, I was good friends with a woman who was a lesbian. We got on like a house on fire and I often thought. 'if she was a man, we'd make a great couple.' And she liked me.

But when it came down to it, as it were, I was just not sexually aroused. I tried! But... I'm just very hetero.

So no, I could not learn homosexuality. And I wanted to.

My experience what that it was easier to find a man with similar interests but who would not be interested in me and more difficult to find another woman who would be interested in me but who would not have similar interests. Makes me wonder how Sally Ride found someone.

This one hits home for me. I strongly suspect my DS will be homosexual when he gets older. I've had this thought since he was 2. He is now 7. He is lucky in that he has a momma who doesn't care if he likes boys or girls and will fight like a lion for him to protect him from those who have an issue with it.

My MIL "has issues" with homosexuality. She would never be rude to someone who is gay or treat them cruelly, but deep down she really believes that homosexuality is a choice. She even compared it to using pornography. The irony is that we both attend churches of the same denomination - one that does not condemn homosexuality. So this is her personal feeling more than what she learned in church. We have learned to "agree to disagree" about the subject. But I have some serious concerns about how she'll react if my ds does turn out to be gay. They have a very close relationship now and he would be very hurt if she distanced herself because of it.

I think there are two things behind the reasoning of your brother and my mother-in-law that make it hard for them to accept that homosexuality is something people are born with and not something they choose. First of all, if God made everyone, how could God have made gay people when he specifically said in Leviticus that it was wrong. That is a conflict with them. God can't make things that are wrong and they think it specifically says in the Bible that this is wrong. Of course they overlook the fact that the same book of the bible (Leviticus) says that you shouldn't eat shellfish and you shouldn't wear wool and cotton together. But they overlook that.

The other thing is that is more easy to rationalize hating gay people if you think being gay is a choice. If you hate black people based on the color of their skin, then you're a bigot and are hating them for something they were born with. If you hate gay people and you think they choose to be gay, then you can rationalize not being a bigot because you think they're making a choice to be that way. But if you think they're born that way and you choose to hate them, you become a bigot.

I also think there's a huge amount of fear involved. In my unscientific, anecdotal evidence, it seems to me that more men tend to be homophobic than women (my MIL being one of the exceptions). I think for men, homosexuality scares them because they are either afraid they would like it if they tried it or they have a fear or rape. And some homophobes seem to have this twisted idea that gay men just want to recruit young boys(ie.no gay scout leaders), which is so untrue.

I know none of this helps you with your brother and your nephew but I wanted to let you know how sorry I was you're going through this. Also how brave I think you are for coming out to your family.

One good thing is that recent studies have shown that the younger adults were the ones most in favor of gay right and gay marriage. Each generation seems to be getting more tolerant, so hopefully that will apply to your nephew too. Maybe, over time, your brother will realize that you're the same person he grew up with and will loosen up a bit. Good luck.

Homophobia is also rooted in misogyny.

Bingo. Misogynistic men tend to be more homophobic because they think male homosexuals are women-like, which in their minds means degraded.

Lesbians at worst are aspiring to man-ness, which misogynists consider more amusing than threatening.

Of course it is learned, otherwise why would we have journeymen homosexuals and master homosexuals? How would they determine seniority in the homosexual unions?

A couple things I would point out to him:

1) the prophets have been wrong a lot in the past. Now we attribute that to them "speaking as men." Is it possible they are speaking as men now?

2)Why would someone fake homosexuality? Tell him about the vast amount of gay mormons committing suicide. Why would they do that if they are faking that mentality. Plus, many, and I mean many, gay mormons tried for years to reverse their sexual orientation without any success.

3)Wikipedia "biology and sexual orientation." That gives a good overview of the concept of it being learned. What I would tell him is yes, there are environmental factors that come into play, but that is the same for just about any disease (not saying that homosexuality is a disease). Environmental factors, however, are not a choice even if they are influential.

Cancell the meeting and tell your brother that you don't want your boyfriend meeting your straight family for fear that they will change your boyfriend into a heterosexual male.

I swear that Bednar gave a talk in which he says that some are born with temptations that others don't have (i.e. homosexuality), but I can't find it on Google!

Tell him he can prove it by learning to be gay.

I recall learning about the case of David Reimer as a psychology major when we discussed gender identity. The poor man's penis was destroyed as an infant in a botched surgery, so the parents were persuaded to raise him as a girl. It did not work.

"Reimer's account, written with John Colapinto two decades later, described how—contrary to Money's reports—when living as Brenda, Reimer did not identify as a girl. He was ostracized and bullied by peers, and neither frilly dresses (which he was forced to wear during frigid Winnipeg winters) nor female hormones made him feel female. By the age of 13, Reimer was experiencing suicidal depression, and told his parents he would commit suicide if they made him see John Money again."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/12/us/david-reimer-38-subject-of-the-john-joan-case.html

He eventually committed suicide. How much his upbringing or inappropriate therapy affected his decision, I can't say.

You don't "raise" a child to be homosexual. I repeatedly come across the idea that the lack of father figures (due to things like divorce) makes sons gay. The thinking makes me sick. It blames the parents for something that isn't even a problem. I am unaware of any damage homosexuality causes (unlike pedophilia/hebephilia or bestiality). You also do not get homosexual children from homosexual marriages/partnerships. Studies have shown children of gay/lesbian parents grow up with gender identities that match the rest of society.

http://www.apa.org/news/press/response/gay-parents.aspx
http://www.apa.org/about/policy/parenting.aspx

Human sexuality encompasses a broad spectrum. Some parts of that spectrum involve the abuse of children. I think we can all agree that the abuse of children must be prevented. We can agree too, that forcible rape is not permissible.

But when it comes to adult consensual sex, we sure have a lot of disagreement, don't we? That's what we need to work on, right there.

The optimum situation would be for half of all homosexuality to be learned. That way, the true born-that-way people will have partners with opposite sex spiritual natures.

For example, a gay couple would have a woman in a guy's body and a guy in a guy's body. That's man and woman together, the way God wants, even though they have similar body parts.

Maybe your TBM brother could volunteer for a case study or better yet he could propose a study and oversee it. He would be famous if he could establish a study that finds and proves his theory with data that is reproducable in the scientific community. He sounds brilliant enough to take part in his own study..and see if he can make himself a "learned homosexual". He could collect all the data and publish it so that there could be more scientific studies done to see if his theory could be validated. Tell him not to waste time and start his study immediately so that his theory can be examined by his peers in the scientific community.

Or is he just a guy drinking Redbull and talking shit about things that he can not prove or even have the educational basis to start to make an intelligent analysis.

Perhaps he will just stick to discussions about what he knows if you suggest that he follow through on his stupidity.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2013 09:47PM by upsidedown.

I have my own ideas on the subject. But at the end of the day we're talking about adults who should be able to do what they want to.

Do we need a reminder about how much Mormons value the precious agency Mormon God gave all of us? He valued it so much that he let Mormon Satan tempt 1/3 of his precious spirit babies and drag them down to Mormon Hell. So if anybody should be following the counsel to "live and let live", it's the Mormons.

And under that premise I feel like it doesn't matter if you think that it's natural/unnatural or nature/nurture. It becomes a non-issue.

Like anything else, homosexuality is a result of a combination of factors. There's no way it's strictly learned, though.

Twin studies have shown that where one twin is homosexual, the other twin is significantly more likely to be homosexual, even when controlled for living environment. However, many identical twins end up in a situation where one is gay and one is straight -- so clearly it is *not* a strictly genetic or natal environment function, either.

Some reading:
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/17/science/gay-men-in-twin-study.html

http://news.sciencemag.org/brain-behavior/2008/06/gay-not-all-genes

Do identical twins who are both homosexual have the "temptation" to be incestuous? And does adding narcissism on top of that increase the likelihood? These are the questions I ask when I should be in bed, sleeping.

I am sorry about the deal with your nephew. That's not right. I have a brother that is the same way. My brother wouldn't let his son play dress up with his sisters because it would make him gay. He also wouldn't let him play with dolls because that would make him gay. Almost everyone else in the family, even TBMS, thinks the kid may be gay. My brother has him out shooting guns and made him play football because he thinks that will keep him from being gay. I don't care if my nephew is gay or not. I will love him either way.

Does there seem to be a double standard when it comes to boys and girls? I know nobody in my family freaked out when I wanted to play with hot wheels and other "boy toys". I wasn't gifted athletically, but I liked sports and was very competitive, too bad I am uncoordinated. :-) I also loved playing Barbies.

My niece didn't like dolls very much (oh, I tried to get her to like them and it didn't work). She loved sports. She gave up dance to concentrate on sports. She is not gay. She was raised by a different brother who I think is a bit more enlightened than the other and let her do what she wanted to do.

I know dozens of gay men that wanted to play with dolls when they were kids, but their parents wouldn't let them. It didn't keep them from being gay.

Why would anyone choose to be gay when they see all the bullying and abuse many gay teens suffer?

Totally agree about the double standard for boys and girls. I am another one who grew up loving to play with Hot Wheels and no one batted an eye. My DS likes "boy" toys like hotwheels, but eyebrows were raised when he was little because he liked to dress up in tutus and feather boas. I could care less, but some other people weren't as open minded.

And this is one thing my DH and I disagree about. DS will say he wants something and DH will say you don't really want that. It's a girl toy. Makes me mad. First of all, let him get the toy he wants. Secondly who cares if it's a boy or girl toy. Thirdly, by differentiating between "boy" and "girl" toys it's easy to make one sound better than the other, when that's not necessarily true.

I don't think DH does it because he's homophobic though. I think it's more that he worries about DS getting teased and bullied by other kids for being different.

I agree that with all the bullying and abuse that goes on, I don't see how someone would chose to be gay, especially if someone is raised in a culture where homosexuality is taboo, such as in Mormonism.

"Im willing to grant it all"
"It still doesnt prove your supposition is true"
OK lets say it is learned...that necessarily makes it wrong?
Wrong.
Thats the same fallacy as if we were meant to fly wed been born with wings.

Your brother is a dick.

Tell him to learn how to give a good BJ. His mates will all learn to enjoy him.