What can you judge it by? I've heard this from a number of Mormons. You can't judge the church by the members. I've managed to bring an end to all these conversations by agreeing heartily and say "That's true - because those members don't even BEGIN to live what the church teaches."

But IMO the only reason people join churches is to become better people (or fear they'll become bad people) and to socialize with like-minded individuals and have a sense of community. If the church isn't making people better, it's pretty useless because there goes reason one to belong. And who wants to hang around in a community of people who aren't living their ideals?

It's like "You can't judge a diet by what those who follow the diet weigh." Or "you can't judge a car company by how their cars perform." So what can you judge the church by?

Actually, maybe that's the only comeback we need - ask Mormons what they CAN judge Mormonism by. I wonder if they even know.

The money!! Mormons win big-time if it's about the money.

Like - He who dies with the most toys wins.

The only problem is that if you follow the money trail (obscure as it is) what they do with the money is rarely Christian. Decidedly less service oriented than other churches. The problem is, the church has left a false trail for members to follow about how much the church does to serve humanity.

Now if you figure whichever church BRAGS about their service the most, you will also find a winner in Mormonism.

You can judge it by the truthfulness of it's claims. You can argue that it's a good social club, but it's not a good club for those that know everything taught each Sunday is BS...it's miserable to sit there and listen to that garbage.

I've said something similar before - that it doesn't matter if what a Mormon is hearing is nice or nasty. What matters if it is TRUE. If the truth makes Mormonism look bad, then Mormons have a bigger problem than so-called anti-Mormon material.

Unfortunately, many people don't see it that way. They see it as "useful", whether true or not. They think they were raised well, and believe that they only way to raise decent kids is in that kind of controling environment. They won't even consider the fact that someone from another church, or an atheist, could possibly turn into a decent human. They get stuck on the idea that the world is going to hell...they must do something to save the kids...

Oh this is such a good question! Morgbots say this all the time. "Don't judge the church by its members. The church is perfect the member aren't."

Bull**it!!! The church should be judged by its members because it is they who represent the church. The world doesn't see the grand and spacious church office building or City Creek Mall or the grand and spacious conference center. The world sees the members and that is who the world uses to judge the church by.

So screw all you members who feel like you can hide behind ths statement because YOU idios are who the world judges the church by and YOU idiots are who the world will ALWAYS judge the church by.

And they always think people don't like Mormons because of anti-Mormon material. When the truth is that most people don't care enough about the LDS church to read "anti" material. All they know about Mormonism is how they see Mormons act.

Which is where the saying "The only anti-Mormons are the members themselves" came from.

+1. I hate that saying, the church is perfect but the members aren't. It's a very poor attempt at defending crap behaviour in the name of mo'ism.

its amazing, I keep seeing that saying. so brainwashed they can't even come up with something remotely unique to try and defend their own kind.

You can't judge the quality of an educational institution by the knowledge and skill level of its students and graduates...

Oh wait, that's exactly how you judge an educational institution.

It's funny, then, when they preach that the church IS the members. If I judge the church even by the Q-12 and FP it doesn't receive a very high grade, and when you include Q-12 and FP from the past it fails with flying colors.

But even without that, There is plenty of absurdity and harm in the doctrine and teachings by themselves. They may wiggle out of that by insisting that it was imperfect people who came up with the bad doctrine and teachings, but by that reasoning all you would be left with to judge is the corporation. If they want, I'll go there too.

I always come back with:

If there were no people there would be no church

The people may be wonderful but they follow lies and evil which tarnishes their character. So the Church is the problem and the followers are the problem.

Interesting thought. I've heard that before from church members as well, and it usually comes up when someone in the church, either a member or a leader, does something questionable. TBMs have no problem with pointing out how wonderful their church is based on the "good" work they do in the world, like volunteer- and welfare-related activities. "We're good, as long as you ignore the bad stuff."
I think it's all a matter of perspective. While I was talking to a bishop about my disbelief, he cautioned me to judge the church "by its fruits". With the knowledge I had at that point, I could clearly see the mass of rotten apples behind the ones conveniently put on display.

"But IMO the only reason people join churches is to become better people (or fear they'll become bad people) and to socialize with like-minded individuals and have a sense of community. If the church isn't making people better, it's pretty useless because there goes reason one to belong."
I think that's maybe why you disagree with TBMs on this. In mormonism, the church's purpose isn't to be a social institution (there are GC talks denouncing that sort of attitude), but a stepping stone in their "eternal progression". No matter what wrong may be done in the church, TBMs judge tscc to be good because the church is necessary for them to be exalted. (Do you see the circular logic here?).

I agree with your views, and in my opinion as well, the purpose of a church is to provide a sense of community, to help foster good values, morals and actions, and to help individuals develop themselves. I will admit that there are good and charitable things done in tscc by its members, just like in any social organization. However, I would consider an institution which guilts members into obedience, forces them to pay for salvation, keeps them from enjoying life, and ultimately forces them into a rigid personality mould where they cannot be who they really are, to be a failure of a church by any standards.

They want it both ways.

There a lot of very nice people who happen to be Mormons. TSCC tries to take credit whenever they (as individuals or a group) do "good works". "By their fruits....." we are told.

But, whenever a seminary teacher is cause having sex with a student, or a member rips of another member through affinity fraud, or a bishop breaks up a marriage.....well, then we are told that we can't judge the church by the members or those members aren't living the gospel.

Hinckly claimed that TSCC "makes bad people good, and good people better."

IF that claim were true, how would we know? Well, we can look at the stats for an area dominated by TSCC and its members: Utah. What do we find? High rates of depression and suicide, divorce rates the same as other areas/religions, high rates of affinity fraud, high rates of bankruptcy,....the list goes on.

But I don't judge TSCC by the people. I judge it by its truth claims. It is clearly NOT true.

In Moism, sloganering substitutes for thought. It's as though advertising jingles defined truth. Catchy slogans are just that, though: catchy slogans. They crumble under the question: "What's that supposed to mean?"

The church is perfect; the people aren't. What? What does "the church is perfect" supposed to mean? It's got the perfect teaching? How would you know? The teachings were given by a prophet who never made an accurate prophesy in his life. It's teachings about Native Americans, blacks, gays, and women, blood atonement, Adam-God, either have been, or are being, tossed into the dustbin of history. Perfect what?

Judge the church by its fruits. What're it's fruits? It just spent half-a-billion dollars on timberland in Florida. What fruit is that? Should I worship Google or ExxonMobile too? The mormon echo chamber's got its members so cowed that they jump straight from A to Z every time. Say, "What about P or Q?" and they respond, "What? I never heard of that."

Wonderful point! tscc and mormon beliefs in general wither and die under the scrutiny of ACTUAL, RATIONAL THOUGHT.

By it's doctrine, it's profits, it's expenditures, it's lack of transparency, it's prolific racism, it's origination by a pedophile, it's unfounded prophecy's and claims, .....

Silly you. Didn't you know you judge a church by its real estate?
:-D

If someone is going to use this logic they have to apply it fairly:

You can't judge the Nazi party by its members.
You can't judge drug cartels by their members.
You can't judge the KKK by its members.
Organizations are perfect, people aren't.

You can't excuse the actions of any organization by blaming atrocities on the members of the organization, and not on the organization.

If being a member makes someone a better person, that is great. If it makes a person a better person, but then they only go to a certain point and stop becoming an even better person, then there may be a problem, because we don't know how that person would have fared without the Mormon anchor around their development.

I believe the Mormon church helps about 25% of the members to stay "good people". The other 75% are impeded in their progress by ideas or cultural beliefs that make them bigoted, homophobic, mysogonistic, etc. About 75% are closed minded and are unable to see their flaws and fix them. So on the whole it hurts more than it helps by a very decent margin, IMO.

Right - like certain diets help a few people but most don't lose weight on that particular fad diet and other people are actually harmed but it. That's Mormonism - a fad spiritual diet that helps a few, does absolutely nothing for others and wrecks the spiritual health of many.

Wasn't the whole idea behind the 'I'm a Mormon' campaign to get people to judge the church based on the (very cherry-picked) members?

We could each sit down and design a dozen churches complete with rules, procedures, doctrine, and rituals. We'd then have 1000s of churches on paper, but without members, they'd be nothing.

Without mormon members there would be no mormon church.

You forgot one important thing fact. You can't judge the church, PERIOD. It is God's church, and if you blaspheme he will put you in an eternal time-out. </sarcasm>

"The Church is perfect, the people are not."
I always respond that the truth is the exact opposite. The people are just fine, like most people, doing the best with what they have.
The Church is the problem.
For example, you peon members had nothing whatever to do with implementing the LDS doctrine of polygamy, did you? You didn't even get to vote on it. THE CHURCH did it.
You peon members had nothing to do with denying priestcraft to the black man, pre-1978, did you? YOU didn't have a say in it's implementation did you? THE CHURCH did it.
You peon members had nothing to do with the LDS abuse of gay's, did you?--nor with relegating women to a status as voiceless baby makers did you?
Nope!
THE CHURCH DID IT.
The ONLY thing that can be laid at members feet is allowing
LDS Inc. to dictate to you what is "right" and what is "wrong"
whilst tricking you into believing your opinions are worthless, eliminating your right to think for yourselves.
T H E
CH H U R C H
D I D
I T.