in the LDS Church (and elsewhere)?

These are some of my experiences and how I dealt with them.


As a female, I have had plenty of inappropriate, uncomfortable experiences with members, mostly men.

I have posted about the two handed hand shake, the sliding arm across the back (the Garment Feel-Up) and the excessive hugs from mostly LDS men, but some women did it also.

At first, in my convert-naivety, I thought the members were just overly affectionate, and loving, and welcoming. It bothered me some, as it was uncomfortable, probably because our family is very English - not a lot of affection, or hugging, and no kissing on the lips, in the family, etc.

Then, I realized what was really going on! It was not just church members who engaged in inappropriate touching, etc.

Back in the 80's before sexual harassment, and a "hostile work environment' had become recognized and important and we had the law on our side... we women put up with a lot of inappropriate behavior and unwanted touching from men.
This happens with men also.

It was not uncommon for men to take all kinds of "liberties" with females in the work place and elsewhere.

If you told them to stop they often thought it was a joke and they were entitled to keep it up and laugh. If you got mad or irritated they would say things like: " Isn't she cute when she is mad. She wants it, ya..she does," and other crap like that. INFURIATING!

This is how I dealt with males who crowded me, engaged in appropriately touching, pushed up against me in the work place, got in my face, etc.

In the days before I retired, I was a teller at a bank. My immediate boss, who always dressed in very tight polyester pants, when he needed to talk to me, would come up behind me at my work station, put his knee in the back of my knee which wedged me up to my work counter, boxed me in a corner against a file cabinet. This so startled me the first time this happened that I froze. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, considered he just took a misstep.

However, the next time he did that, I just took a small step back and placed the heal of my small healed dress shoe with my full weight on his foot. When he jumped and yelled, I said: "Oh goodness, did I step on your foot, I am so sorry" Guess what? He never did that again!

Another time, a young man was my trainee and after several warnings, that he was standing too close, (he was blocking the drawer, slightly behind me I needed to use), thinking that he had backed away,I opened the drawer very quickly with a little force to get something I needed in the back of it, for a customer at the drive up window and smacked him with the corner of that drawer right in his groin.

He promptly doubled over, swore and yelled at me. I reminded him that I gave him fair warning that he was standing too close to the work area! He never did that again either.

That time it was totally unintentional, but the result was the same!

Another time, more than one person crowded me up to my counter and I was pinned in a corner, so, I just calmly told them, with my teeth clinched...that I was claustrophobic and I was about to start screaming and yelling and flailing about, if they didn't back away. I never saw people move so fast! That did it also. They never did that again.

Another time, when a male was bugging me, getting in my face, teasing and being a smart mouth, I warned him, several times to get out of my face and to knock it off.

Well, he didn't. He took that as his cue to take a step further, so with my left hand, I distracted him, pointing at him, then with my right hand in a fist, as he was standing very close, I smacked him with my middle knuckle in the center of the solar plexus (right below the rib cage) with my middle knuckle - with a very quick jab. He doubled over, claimed he was in horrific pain and never, ever bothered me again! I just smiled and said, I warned you. You didn't listen.



Fortunately, the attitude of most men, these days is more respectful, they understand what "unwanted touching" means. Still goes on, but there is clear recourse now. Making it work is another matter.

I recounted the other methods I learned to get people to back off, allow for personal space, and refrain from unwanted and inappropriate touching, hugging, stroking, etc.

Like they say: "necessity is the mother of invention," and left to my own devices, I instinctively knew what I needed to do to protect myself!

What about you? Did you have to deal with any of this kind of behavior? And how do you handle it?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2013 10:49PM by SusieQ#1.

My friend, a nice looking, but somewhat worn around the edges blonde was working at a remote truck stop in the Nevada.
It was the only place in town she could get regular work but one night she had a very rude customer.
He was demanding and loudly making snide commments to her. She said it was odd, but she got distracted when filling his coffee cup and it overflowed...on to his lap!
His companions at the table gave her a larger than ususal tip because they didn't like him either and were glad she'd had a "mishap" all over him!

My sister said when she served tables doing banquet work the men who got 'fresh' with her found that she tended to get a little closer with a hot pot of coffee close to their heads. They got the hint and stopped trying to pinch her butt.

I was sexted before while the husband was not home... I declined the offer. I was tempted and won't lie... but just couldn't bring myself to do it.

That handshake and simultaneous shoulder pinch with the other hand. I always found that there was a dangerous, dominant threat in that one.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2013 12:57AM by hayduke.

At my work place many [25] years ago, a male employee lifted up the back of my shirt and tickled me...I blew up and told him in a very loud voice to NEVER DO THAT AGAIN! He never did. [and the other people looked at him] I am not a huggy kissy person, esp. not with men I barely know. This man was not a Mormon.

I had to get used to all the hand shaking etc when I joined the Mormons. It took some doing but I managed. I didn't like the men who would hurt your hand while shaking it, holding it too hard and too long. Most people were OK. What I didn't like was the nosy old biddies checking me for garments and lecturing me when they didn't find them. [I quit wearing those in this heat long before I stopped going]

I don't really recall any physical harassment of the sexual kind. I did have problems with some embarrassing, frankly threatening harrassment that I got from coworkers from time to time. I never found a way to be able to deal with it at the time. Once, when I did go to my female boss for help with the situation I was promptly fired, told to leave right away not to look at or talk to anybody. Ah the good oold days.

This all happened in the 70's and 80's, before there was even such a term as sexual harrassment that I knew of.

I had this problem with mormon women. Not in a sexual nature. More like pretending we are close enough to snuggle. I don't get it.

Had one young women's leader who would stand unbelievably close. I hated it when she would talk to me. It bothered the other girls too. I use to stand with my legs scissored to keep her at bay and she'd lean over the leg extended towards her. I was young and did not feel I could speak up.

Had some lady from another ward who liked to go around hugging all the young women from our ward when she saw us. I don't know why, we only knew her in passing. I hated it and all the other young women knew my feelings. She was like a cat who senses when someone does not want their attention. She'd tried to combat this by nuzzling my cheek with hers during the hug. I reacted strongly. Pulled away and made a guttural noise. That is a very intimate gesture and it blows my mind she thought that would be okay. I never let her near me again.

Not to long ago I had to attend a mormon funeral. A lady I knew growing up sat next to me on the bench with our thighs touching. She was closer to me than she was her husband. Plenty of room between them. WTH

When people comment on mormons' lack of boundaries this is what I think of.

Years ago while working in Provo, I had a boss who kept staring at my rather bodacious tatas whenever he spoke to me. It really drove me crazy. I always dressed modestly at work and never, ever wore anything even remotely revealing.

One day we were standing in the filing room and he was staring at those tatas while he was talking to me and I'd had enough. So I got down on my knees, looked up at him and told him that my eyes were right here (pointing to my eyes) and that I would appreciate him looking me in the eye when he spoke to me, not at my breasts.

He turned tail and ran. And he never so much as looked at me again. I quit that job a few weeks later.

I had a Mormon guy at work who used to talk to my boobs, too. I just started crossing my arms in front of my chest whenever I talked with him.

I wonder if they even realize what they're doing or if they're on autopilot. Or if they're doing it to make a point... I just don't get it.

Most men don't mind being touched by most women. Any guy with half a brain should know to let the women set the boundaries when it comes to touching.

There are a couple of old ladies at church who have such a problem with balance that they will literally grab onto whoever they are talking to to remain upright.

Before I figured that out, it drove me crazy that they were too close, leaning in, and grabbing.

presbyterian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are a couple of old ladies at church who
> have such a problem with balance that they will
> literally grab onto whoever they are talking to to
> remain upright.
>
> Before I figured that out, it drove me crazy that
> they were too close, leaning in, and grabbing.


This is a concern ....for me! hehe I find myself using an arm here and there for stability, but I usually ask first! (Don't break your foot when you are a long time senior - It's a RULE!)

At my first "real job" when I was 18, I ran a cash register at a discount store. I was one of a row of checkouts. The store manager had a disconcerting habit of coming (sneaking) up behind the cashiers- especially the young ones like me- and pinching their back or arm, making them jump. I hated it. And him.

I got him to quit doing it, though. One day I had turned my head a little for some reason and happened to see him creeping up behind me. I quickly grabbed a roll of quarters and started to open it.

Pinch.

The quarters all went flying as I jumped a foot or more, shrieking, "Yahh" or something like that. He recoiled as if struck. The customers who weren't on their hands and knees picking up(and pocketing) quarters were giving him the stink eye for sure.

And then I said, "Oh, gosh I am SO terribly sorry. You startled me." He NEVER touched me again. He wouldn't even look at me. The other cashiers still got his "attention" though.

During my teens in my non-mo church in SLC, a couple of men began attending the church who were experts at giving me and my sister handshake greetings while creepily massaging the underside of our wrists with their middle finger. It always felt like my hand had been molested. Soon, my younger sister and I would walk together around the church and enter the sanctuary through the back door just to avoid the creeps when they were the assigned "greeters" in the foyer. Fortunately, my mother had told me that if a guy ever gave me the creeps to listen to my gut and feel free to avoid him and to not feel obligated to be polite.

Later on, my sister learned that one of the men, "Chester", had been officially written up for being inappropriate with several women he worked with (she worked for the same large employer for several years). Many years later, I learned from our former pastor's daughter that several women had quit attending the church because of Chester's behavior. I was good friends with Chester's daughter and know enough about the household to know some very sick stuff went on within his family home too.

Then there were two awkward times with my TBM boss - also in SLC. I was "John's" secretary and we worked in a two-person office where he did outside sales for a multi-state company. John was married with four young children. One day after we'd been working together for over a year, he mentioned that his back was really bothering him and asked me to give him a massage (I was single at the time). I was stunned - all I could think was "Yuk!" and "How inappropriate!". I managed to calmly say, "I don't think that would be appropriate" and he said, "Yeah, you're probably right" and that was the end of the matter.

However, about a year after that incident (by which time I was married) John touched me in a way that was probably just teasing on his part but was terrifying to me, given that I had undiagnosed PTSD due to childhood abuse and trauma. I was drinking from a fountain in the public hallway of our office building and John snuck up from behind and squeezed my ribs with his fingers. I spun around and smacked my head into the wall and wildly stared around while I was trying to get my bearings. Meanwhile, John was saying, "Hey, it's just me... John..." - everything was just a fog to me. After a few seconds, I realized where I was and who it was that had touched me - but by then my heart was racing and I was hyperventilating. As we walked into our office, John commented that "You had a really wild look on your face - I swear, you didn't even recognize me." I flatly said, "I didn't. Please don't ever do that again." And he didn't.

A few years ago I worked for the State of Utah in a position that sometimes required me to wear a reasonably nice suit to work. One day,myself and a co-worker were in a rural Utah Arby's. I was standing at the cash register totally lost in thought,pondering the benefits of the Arby's "Large Roast Beef Sandwich" vs. a "Chicken Fillet" when totally out of the blue and unsuspected by me, an older man in about his late sixties,approached me from behind and gave me a bear hug while saying "Oh yes, another fine,young Returned Missionary!" I immediately spun around and pushed him hard enough to make him stumble a little and said " I am NOT a Returned Missionary!". He skulked off with his head hanging low, it was lunchtime and the lunch crowd stared apparently in disbelief at my taking offense at being accused of being a saintly Returned Missionary.

Later, while I was eating, the man's daughter came up to me and apologized saying that her father was easily excited by missionaries and that he mistook my suit as being a missionary suit.

That's weird. Why would you hug a complete stranger assuming he's a returned missionary. Many people wear suits besides them.

"Why would you hug a complete stranger assuming he's a returned missionary. Many people wear suits besides them."

I think the clues to answer your question are the words "rural Utah."

I had a friend at Ricks college come up to me in the lunch line and unexpectedly poked me in the ribs from behind. I jumped, turned and hit him the solar plexus before I could blink. I pulled my punch at the last moment, but left him gasping. I felt so bad for him, he meant NO harm at all. I explained I'd learned that back hand from being in a high school where that behavior was the favorite sneak attack of the teenage boys. Poke her in the ribs from behind. I'd come home with my ribs aching sometimes.


The weirdest thing was how the girls around me criticised me for hitting a man!


It gets better; One of the teachers at Ricks college told of how one of the young enthusiastic young men realized he could hug the pretty young coeds on campus because of the "we're all one big family" attitude of Ricks College.

He came up to one of his familiy home evening sisters and hugged her. She reacted by shoving her chemistry book in his chest. He reported to the Campus Infirmiry complaining of 'chest pain" the Dr., when he could stop laughing, explained he was only bruised. The "bruise" however, was bigger than a large dinner plate spread across the front of the young man's chest!

Now you could post that amazing bruise on youtube and see all the colors human skin can get; from black and blue and pink, to yellow and green!

Fortunately, we, as women have been able, in many instances to protect ourselves from unwanted, inappropriate touching.
Now days, there is some recourse, however, sometimes it is not sufficient.

I'm age 19. I recently turned 18 when I first attended the church across from our new home.I have a social disorder that causes severe anxiety whenever I'm in a new social situation. So, when I started attending church,I had extreme anxiety. I hid my anxiety for those past few services,hugging everyone politely. I don't like being touched or hugged unless I feel a close connection to that person, but I hugged everyone the same. This guy named Ben is the pastor's son and is about my mom's age ( in his mid forties). After things settled down, I became comfortable enough with the women to give them hugs. The moment my parents told the church how old I was, Ben's eyes literally lit up with interest. Since then, Ben would hug me every service and kiss the top of my head. He always made me feel uncomfortable due to the way he showed too much interest into me. As a result to him kissing me, I politely asked him to not hug me or kiss me or touch me besides handshakes. Being not a very social individual, I would immediately take my seat. The moment I would take my seat, Ben would hover or lean over me asking questions or checking out my clothes. I showed my disinterest by avoiding eye contact, keeping my arms and hands real close to my body, and speaking little to nothing to him in return. When service was over, he'd make his way to me as I was ready to exit, standing too close to me and often touching my middle back or my shoulders. I didn't want to be rude because he "seemed nice," and appeared disabled. Besides him having difficulty in speech, however, he looked like a quite able adult. I asked him politely for the second time to not hug me, touch me, or invade my personal space and he nodded in understanding. Even after I asked him, he'd "slip up" quite often and continue touching,hugging,and invading my personal space... I then asked my parents to say something to him, yet he still doesn't listen.. I can't avoid him due to the church being quite small and all.. I can't help but think that he knows what he's doing is wrong just because I'm the only one he treats this way. When he hugs the others, it is brief and he uses only one arm to hug. He doesn't kiss anyone else or lean over them. He doesn't stand too close to them or follow them,..when they're not at church, he doesn't ask their family where they are. He doesn't touch their clothes or tries to have conversations with them. He only does that to me. I'm the youngest woman/girl in church and I'm not married. I'm not interested in Ben in any form and had expressed it as politely as I could. Last Sunday Ben had randomly came right up from behind me and without warning and without my consent, he removed both of my hoodies from my head. He then very deliberately squeezed my shoulders in a hug like manner right in front of my mother. Me and my mom later left church without giving him a handshake,but before exiting the church, he patted my mother on the back as if to say,"thank you for not saying anything." I left the church feeling upset and violated.. To a average person it wouldn't be a big deal,but I didn't like him touching or hugging me so I didn't consent it...all I can do is stay at home or confront him loudly about his disrespect towards me. If someone asks you they don't feel comfortable with physical contact, that other person shouldn't continue to force physical contact upon you. To the moment I'm typing this, I'm still suffering and struggling with Ben's continuous forceful physical contact. If you read this and are experiencing the same thing,I pray you're stronger than I am and that your methods to protect yourself work better than mine.

First, quit attending that church. There are plenty of other churches, and I'll bet that most of them are not the huggy type of church.

Second, Ben has been taking advantage of your reluctance to stand up for yourself. You really do need to get loud. If he ever tries to touch you again, tell him *very* loudly to STOP. You can also say, "Cut that out!" or "Knock it off!" but you must be LOUD and ANGRY. Tell him that you have asked him repeatedly not to touch you, and that he is not to touch you. Make sure that a lot of other people hear you. Make a scene! Don't be afraid of embarrassing him. He needs to be embarrassed!

If he puts a hand on you after being warned, grab his hand as if you are giving him a handshake and twist his hand and wrist hard to the right. If you want to give it some extra oomph do a little chopping motion with your left hand to the crook of the same elbow. This will send him to the ground. Practice lightly with a friend first and you will see how this works.

Good luck and let us know how things go. You deserve better. Stick up for yourself!

Summer is right. Ben's behavior is totally inappropriate and you are well within your rights to loudly speak up for yourself. Other people need to know what a creep he's being. He sounds like he's preying upon you.

Ben is raising some red flags for predatoratory behavior. Not only is he disrespecting your boundaries, he's pushing/testing them. Predators look for victims who don't stand up for themselves. So far he has learned from your behavior that no doesn't mean no. His behavior annoys you, but he doesn't really have to stop. I know you have anxiety, but for your safety you MUST stand up to him!!! Get a restraining order if that's what it takes.

Like other posters have commented, get PISSED! Don't think about how he seems nice. Think: "How dare this A$$ not listen to me! What kind of a piece of $hit does he think I am that he treats me this way! I'll show him who the piece of $hit is!" Let him know that you're the kind of person who stands up for herself and will not let anyone trample her boundaries. It's better to be a little embarrassed about causing a scene then have to escape from an attempted rape. It might sound extreme, but you really don't know what this man is like behind closed doors.

Best wishes, hun! Let us know how it goes! You can do it!

...a symptom of which is a lack of physical and/or social boundaries.

Men have been hitting on me since I was twelve years old and was

already wearing a bra. They still do. I have a smart mouth and

I'm not afraid to say anything to anyone especially a man if he

is out of line. If you have a smile on your face you can say

anything. They always respect me except for one time when

I was twelve and some younger boys ran up to me and touched

my boobs and ran away. I was mortified and thought it was my

fault and I was

hurt thinking that I must have been responsible. I grew to know

better. I never had something like that happen again.

My TBM brother-in-law, who I have gotten some gaydar signals from, once came up to me in a grocery store and hugged me. I sort of instinctually stiffened. It seemed weird. I still wonder if it was just a TBM bro hug or something else. Or maybe it's just my German-Norwegian affect. We aren't a huggy people.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2015 08:32PM by rationalist01.

I'm a very PDA person! I'm always hugging my boyfriend, my family, my friends, my co-workers, my horse, my dog... lol.

I will even hug a new acquaintance if we both appear to be receptive. It is important to be able to read the social cues and vibes people give off. This is not to say that anyone is obligated to be touched, especially by someone they are uncomfortable with.

I have found most of the Mormons I know to be kind, caring and openly expressive.

Usually, a hug is just a hug.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2015 11:24PM by Sapphire.

There's a woman in my social circle I'm pretty sure has a crush on me. I don't feel that way about her at all. But she keeps trying to give me big hugs. I try to turn sideways so it's more of a buddy hug than a front-to-front, boobs-to-chest, pelvis-to-pelvis kind of thing.

Meanwhile, in a different social circle, there's a women who has perfected the art of the totally platonic hug. She hugs everyone. The problem is that I have a secret crush on her, she's unavailable (which I respect) and there's no reason to believe she would be attracted to me. So it would be a lot easier if she didn't hug me.

Hi Susie-Q, as no one has brought this up, in the workforce there are two defined categories of sexual harassment--hostile environment and quid pro quo.

What you're describing could be hostile environment IF you tell the person the touching is unwanted. Even in a non-workplace setting, let the person know directly that you feel uncomfortable with the touching and it MUST stop.

Quid pro quo is the promise of something a value by a supervisor or an authority figure for sexual favors.

By nature I'm a touchy-feely kind of guy in a non-sexual way outside my marriage. If I'm going to give someone I hug, I generally ask if it's okay to do so.

Best wishes! The Boner.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2015 01:10AM by byuboner.

This has been a topic that has come up a lot lately.

Because of the chemo, touching is a big no-no right now. Don't touch me.

But everyone and their dog wants to hug me! What the freaking heck!

If I initiate the hug, okay, fine, that's one me. If I get sick, that's on me! But everyone is wanting to hug me. Like even people I don't know, when they see the mask, they ask, "Oh, do you have the flu?" I say, "No, I'm going through chemo." And their first response is to try and hug me. Like complete and total stranger at Target. How off the wall is that!

Or they want to hold your hands to pray with you! Look, I will take all the prayers, warm wishes, good thought, happy dances, positive vibes, anything. But please don't touch me!

Now prior to this, the only people that seemed to not respect my boundaries were the good ol' LDS'ers or strange baby hungry people when I was very pregnant (and most of those turned out to be LDS'ers too)

The hug/checking for g's thing really bothered me. It got to the point where I would shrug out of people's hugs and take a step back, not minding at all that it made them look uncomfortable. In the last 4 months, when someone went to do it, I would very loudly exclaim, "I would like you to please not hug me." I think they think I am having mental health issues. You shouldn't just go around touching people you don't have a personal relationship with unless you have their consent. That is just wrong.

Perhaps when you are out and about once again in your mask, and people ask if you have the flu, just say, "Yes, please keep your distance." Or, "No, I'm just trying to keep the flu away." You don't owe everyone the truth, especially when the consequences for doing so are harmful for you.

Last year at UVU, a couple of male students decided it would be funny to just walk up to random women students and kiss them just to get their reactions (on film).

They claimed it was a social experiment (funny they only picked the younger, prettier girls). Admin told then to knock it off but they only quit after being told the women could file sexual assault charges.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2015 11:15AM by caedmon.

This is a post of mine from Nov. 2013 that I completely forgot about! It's always an appropriate subject, however.

There are many people who think a Hug a Day is some kind of miracle cure and required. It is not.
Not everyone likes or wants to be hugged or touched.I often remind people that some folks have physical conditions and touching and hugging are not just uncomfortable, they are painful.

Always ask. I have friends that always hug. Others do not. It's OK as I can control the situation.

It's a big no-no in the work place these days. Just tapping someone can be a problem.

Speaking of catching illnesses. Church, according to my doctor, at the time, was the worse place to go to catch unwanted illnesses! In fact, we were told, to keep the baby home for six weeks after birth with the last one. That doctor knew what he was talking about!

I don't like airplanes for that reason also. I don't like all that physical contact from strangers either.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2015 12:02PM by SusieQ#1.